andym148 2 #1 December 17, 2012 My misses (fiancé), were discussing what we would do if we were ever in the situation were you had to make the decision of going for the student or for your other half. The question was "the exit tumbles, and the other instructor and the student are rendered unconscious" What would you do, who would you go to first? Now if the other instructor was a friend, the answer is clear cut one to me. I would go for the student. But if the other instructor is YOUR wife or husband, would it change your actions? I made the choice of going to the student on both counts, which ensured a nice evening sleep on the sofa for that answer! We both have AAD's, so if i couldn't do "an agent Utah from Point Break" and do a monster swoop to pin. At least she'd have a chance with the AAD firing??? Interested on what other people would do?At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr_Polite 0 #2 December 17, 2012 Dump the student then go for your S.O. or really make it look like you went after you S.O. depending on how your relationship is going Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #3 December 17, 2012 Probably the friend/s.o/other instructor first as I might not remember if they use an AAD (or if it's on). The student has one and it's on and it will fire at a higher altitude than the one that the other person might have. But I guess that if this really happened you would realize that the student was unconscious and do something in response to that and there would never really be a moment of choice? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #4 December 17, 2012 So I'm assuming the scenario is I have the job to release if it tumbles and my wife has the job to fix the funnel. right? (if not, I dump the student and then chase my wife - I have plenty of time) but under the scenario above........ It'll take a bit of time to recognize that they both are unconscious, so I don't really have a choice. What I "see" is that my S.O. has failed to stabilize the student and has lost her grips. At that point and hopefully I'm sticky close anyway, I'm on a beeline to catch the student. That's the job. My "assumption" is my wife is ok, but lost the student. So I go catch the student. It's not necessarily quick to recognize he's out, and dump him after a bit. Hopefully I don't waste any time thinking I can "wake him up". In some cases it might be hard to recognize if he's unconscious vs just froze up. The nice part is someone unconscious typically just "lounge chairs" and is likely easier to catch (even spinning) and relaxed enough to flip compared to a thrashing student "trying" to arch. either way - even if I get him right away, it'll still eat up a lot of time. Next step - 'where the hell is my wife'? Depends if I can even find her at that point..... If I magically KNEW that both were unconscious - ......... they both have AADs. I suspect I'd get my wife, her canopy is MUCH less forgiving on opening than a student reserve and more likely to have an opening issue if she's not in a belly to earth position. And it's my wife. Not the most noble answer, but likely true. If it wasn't my wife, but just a friend with an AAD on the other side? I don't know......I think my training would just have me on the student out of reflex... I always find out on any dive who doesn't have an AAD. Just habit. hard to tell what a person will do, but thinking about scenarios makes the decision quicker for those that have a plan. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 December 17, 2012 QuoteProbably the friend/s.o/other instructor first as I might not remember if they use an AAD (or if it's on). IMHO - not having an AAD is a crappy thing to do to your other AFFI. and we really should check each other anyway so no excuse to 'not remember' if they use one. It's a hell of a crap deal to take care of your student and to have to also be ready to take care of the other instructor too. But if the AFFI didn't have an AAD - that's who I try to catch. It's the only scenario that saves everyone BTW - our first job in any scenario is to save ourselves. so that altimeter is our best friend. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #6 December 17, 2012 Quote IMHO - not having an AAD is a crappy thing to do to your other AFFI. and we really should check each other anyway so no excuse to 'not remember' if they use one. I don't disagree, but if it boils down to deciding who is more likely to be saved by an aad, if not assisted, in this scenario my money is on the student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 35 #7 December 18, 2012 Every AFFI that gets on an airplane with a student has made an agreement; to do everything in their power to protect that student. If the fact that your other JM is your spouse interferes with that responsibility, then maybe the two of you shouldn't be jumping together with students in tow. Just my $0.02 but then again, I'm divorced The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 December 18, 2012 Quote Every AFFI that gets on an airplane with a student has made an agreement; to do everything in their power to protect that student. If the fact that your other JM is your spouse interferes with that responsibility, then maybe the two of you shouldn't be jumping together with students in tow. Just my $0.02 but then again, I'm divorced Damn. Beat meto it. Folks there is no other valid answer. OTOH, if it was my wife, go student. If it was my rich cougar, well.... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 December 18, 2012 QuoteIf the fact that your other JM is your spouse interferes with that responsibility, then maybe the two of you shouldn't be jumping together with students in tow. agreed, avoid the scenario that compromises you - you can see it in my post. But I answered the scenario presented.. I do think the scenario is a non=starter for reasons stated - I'm focused on the student and if something like two heads conk, I'd be after the student anyway long before I even recognize the other AFFI is knocked out. Other parts come out from the question though on AFFI's - we should have an AAD - we should be doing gear checks on each other as well as the student - we should wear hard helmets - we should realize that each jump has an unpredictable variable in the student and no AFF jump should be treated with complacency be confident, be prepared ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #10 December 18, 2012 QuoteOther parts come out from the question though on AFFI's - we should have an AAD - we should be doing gear checks on each other as well as the student - we should wear hard helmets - we should realize that each jump has an unpredictable variable in the student and no AFF jump should be treated with complacency be confident, be prepared Exactly. I haven't worked at a dropzone in a LONG time that does not require instructors to wear AAD's. I can also not remember the last time I saw an AFF instructor NOT wearing a hard helmet. It's just smart, good business practice. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #11 December 18, 2012 Quote Every AFFI that gets on an airplane with a student has made an agreement; to do everything in their power to protect that student. If the fact that your other JM is your spouse interferes with that responsibility, then maybe the two of you shouldn't be jumping together with students in tow. Just my $0.02 but then again, I'm divorced Sorry, I've NOT made any agreement to in any way "protect" my student. I'm there to teach, I'm there to try to correct any errors they might make, and I'm there to assist with stability and deployment if I can. I'm not there to protect. I'm not there to save their life.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanFYF 0 #12 December 18, 2012 Quote Quote Every AFFI that gets on an airplane with a student has made an agreement; to do everything in their power to protect that student. If the fact that your other JM is your spouse interferes with that responsibility, then maybe the two of you shouldn't be jumping together with students in tow. Just my $0.02 but then again, I'm divorced Sorry, I've NOT made any agreement to in any way "protect" my student. I'm there to teach, I'm there to try to correct any errors they might make, and I'm there to assist with stability and deployment if I can. I'm not there to protect. I'm not there to save their life. Glad I read his AFTER my aff lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 December 18, 2012 QuoteQuoteSorry, I've NOT made any agreement to in any way "protect" my student. I'm there to teach, I'm there to try to correct any errors they might make, and I'm there to assist with stability and deployment if I can. I'm not there to protect. I'm not there to save their life. Glad I read his AFTER my aff lol. the statement "any way" got my goat too. I still plan to pull on time and save myself first. Down to that altitude, absolutely my student is protected as follows: "I'll teach, correct any errors, assist with stability and deployment as best I can." sounds a lot like ufk22, doesn't it? more real, and a lot less romanticized/dramatic than Deisel and Pop's portrayal. but really,,,,, we're all pretty much on the same page if you were to dig into the comments ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 31 #14 December 18, 2012 Quote OTOH, if it was my wife, go student. If it was my rich cougar, well.... Rich cougar doing AFF??? You've gotta be kidding me "My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 35 #15 December 18, 2012 We'll have to disagree on this one. Shit can go sideways in other situations as well (aircraft emergency, medical situation,etc.) and I personally believe that the instructor is there to take care of the student. Sure, we all have to save ourselves at some point. But up to that point the stu comes first. Please don't take for granted the fact that these people are quite literally (in their minds) trusting us with their lives. So are their loved ones. That's a big deal to me.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 December 19, 2012 Quote Quote OTOH, if it was my wife, go student. If it was my rich cougar, well.... Rich cougar doing AFF??? You've gotta be kidding me It was a dream...just like having a rich cougar was. Besides..I wouldn't want a cougar. If you knew how old I am, you would suddenly realize how old SHE would have to be. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #17 December 19, 2012 QuoteWe'll have to disagree on this one. Shit can go sideways in other situations as well (aircraft emergency, medical situation,etc.) and I personally believe that the instructor is there to take care of the student. Sure, we all have to save ourselves at some point. But up to that point the stu comes first. Please don't take for granted the fact that these people are quite literally (in their minds) trusting us with their lives. So are their loved ones. That's a big deal to me. Don't think I won't do anything I can for a student,but.... I don't want someone trusting ME with their life. I want my students trusting themselves with their life and I make sure they know that. That's not to say that their confidence in me and what I teach them isn't a factor in their success. Maybe because I've done S/L for over 15 years before AFF. Oh, to answer the original question, once I'm out the door with a student, I only see my partner if they're where they belong in their slot. My focus is my student. When I've lost a partner, I don't even look for them til I'm under canopy. Don't think I would even know that they were unconscious .This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
potatoman 0 #18 December 19, 2012 the fiance. 1. Student should be jumping AAD gear. 2. As instructor, she probably has high performance gear, and being unconscious, she might die anyways from hard landing, where student gear is very slow. 3. The student is not going to thank you in the same wayYou have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is. Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum" Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sky4meplease 0 #19 December 19, 2012 I would stop watching so much television. Overkill is under rated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #20 December 19, 2012 Neither... Johnny Utah will swoop in and save the day. I am going to sit back and watch! "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andym148 2 #21 December 19, 2012 Quote Neither... Johnny Utah will swoop in and save the day. I am going to sit back and watch! Now that is what im talking about.... "1000ft, pull" At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #22 December 20, 2012 Quote Neither... Johnny Utah will swoop in and save the day. I am going to sit back and watch! Do you know Johnny? He's a very good skydiver and damn good BASE jumper.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #23 December 20, 2012 Quote Probably the friend/s.o/other instructor first as I might not remember if they use an AAD (or if it's on). The student has one and it's on and it will fire at a higher altitude than the one that the other person might have. No, it should fire at about the same altitude. Quote But I guess that if this really happened you would realize that the student was unconscious and do something in response to that and there would never really be a moment of choice? I've chased an unconscious jumper in freefall. I was so focused on the one person I don't know if I would have noticed a second unconscious person. It's a pretty intense situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #24 December 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteProbably the friend/s.o/other instructor first as I might not remember if they use an AAD (or if it's on). The student has one and it's on and it will fire at a higher altitude than the one that the other person might have. No, it should fire at about the same altitude. Our DZO has Airtec program the student gear CYPRES' to go off at 980' (or somewhere in that ball park +/- 20')"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #25 December 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteProbably the friend/s.o/other instructor first as I might not remember if they use an AAD (or if it's on). The student has one and it's on and it will fire at a higher altitude than the one that the other person might have. No, it should fire at about the same altitude. Expert Cypres vs. student Cypres out of the box would be 225 meters vs 300 meters. http://www.cypres.cc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=131&Itemid=94&lang=en Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
