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dorbie

USPA Poll on tunnel time replacing some freefall time for AFFIs

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So I read everyones posts, some very strong opinions here.

I'm in favor of 2 hours of tunnel replacing 2 hour of freefall, ONLY if that person is signed off as a Level 2 belly flyer in the tunnel according to the IBA system that tunnels like SkyVenture Colorado use.

I have to disagree with some of the more experienced jumpers here. If you follow the IBA system for a level two belly flyer, the time it takes to achieve the skills can sometimes be equal as real skydives.

As a Level 2 tunnel instructor, I can't tell you how many times I've personally seen skydivers with thousand of jumps that get into a tunnel, and can't stay off the walls and be in control, let alone try to do 2-ways or 4-ways. A lot of these same flyers are AFFI's.

I'll agree that there are aspects of the tunnel that CANNOT duplicate REAL jumps. That's why I wouldn't agree with just a "random" two hours tunnel = 2 hours freefall.

However, let me tell you about my own personal experience.

Started with about 275 skydives and about 3 hours of freefall. Thought I was a descent jumper. So start going to the tunnel-first two hours was spent learning how to fly more efficiently and in A LOT more control since I only had 12 feet to stay within. Had to break a lot of bad habits from freefall but eventually improved. So, now the bad habits are broken, spent another two hours doing individual skills and working thru the IBA level 2 belly skills.WOW, talk about an improvement of being in control.

Someone mentioned that it is easier flying in a tunnel than in freefall. I disagree if you have specific objectives. My skills went thru the roof by training to specific objectives and I think people should take part in IBA in order to understand how regiment the progression is and it's value. If you just say that tunnel time=freefall time, I don't think they equal each other.

For me, the skills I learned in the 2 hours in the tunnel would have taken me 500 jumps to learn.

Please listen to what I'm typing. IBA Belly 2 has specific criteria that have a huge benefit for all jumpers to include jumpers who want to earn AFFI. With the structure I'm for it, without the structure I'm against it.

I have recently jumped with some AFFI's that got theirs the "real way" and I think they could use some tunnel time!

As far as the canopy stuff is concerned, that's a whole other topic. I believe there is a huge gap in training from AFF to D License. I know plenty of people who are AFFI's, record holders (both FS and VFS) that can't fly a canopy, spot an aircraft and teach basic skills. I see a lot of bashing tunnel instructors because they don't have the canopy skills. I agree they need canopy skills, but how much canopy training is really "required" after your "A License". Not enough in my opinion.
So if tunnel instructors have a "C" license, and 4 hours of freefall and are a least a Level 2 IBA Belly flyer in the tunnel, I don't think they are missing out on too much to count just 2 hours of tunnel for freefall. Last time I looked at the stats, it's not the "A-C" license people that are killing themselves and others under canopy, most of them have more freefall time and higher ratings that are doing the damage out there.

DISCLAIMER*** Since we live in a PC world, my disclaimer is there is exceptions to everythingI typed and there are boneheads everywhere that don't fit the "mold".
Brad

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You guys all have a lot more experience than me so I'll defer to you.

Ron - the motorcycle analogy refers to riding in traffic and on roads where you don't know what's around the next corner, not to mention people coming into your lane from the other direction... it is not false. I can very easily learn techniques on a closed course and then apply that knowledge to riding on the road.

As for allowing a rock climber who learnt in a gym how to belay, absolutely I'd be fine with them belaying me I'd also be fine with them teaching to belay, I wouldn't be fine with them setting anchors or leading route though because they didn't learn that. Any time they did have out on real rock could then be spent focussing on the things they don't know.

PC - I like the Canadian system way better than ours. Doesn't seem like the USPA's style though does it?

VB - clearly not. Your example misses the point but I get that you're saying what everyone else is. Many professional racers use simulators (I hear the air force is into them too) to learn a track before they go racing there. Does that mean it's the same? Of course not but it clearly helps. You've probably never raced a car around those circuits so you're not going to have any point of reference or even the tools to transpose that virtual experience to the real world when you get there.

I guess my point boils down to this: Do you guys really believe that someone who's goofed off for 400 jumps with just enough belly to pass the AFF/I course is going to be markedly better than someone who's goofed off for 500 jumps? Many of the experienced instructors complain that the AFF/I rating course is a joke so what exactly are you guys trying to save here? Personally I think that some people are cut out to hold that kind of responsibility and will make great AFF/Is, others won't. There's very little in my nearly 700 jumps (I know, not a lot) that has made me feel that I'm ready to hold a student's life in my hands *AND* be ready to pull at 2k. Ultimately what our instructors are being trained to do is give our students the best chance they can to learn safely in the air. If that means spin stops, roll overs or chasing them across the sky, then that's what it is but there are still no friends below 2k and AFAIC, that's the real mental challenge of being an AFF/I, at least from an outsider's perspective.

I always seem to end up playing devil's advocate. What I really think needs to happen is that all the license and rating jump requirements should be at least doubled and we should add time in sport.

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VB - clearly not. Your example misses the point but I get that you're saying what everyone else is. Many professional racers use simulators (I hear the air force is into them too) to learn a track before they go racing there. Does that mean it's the same? Of course not but it clearly helps. You've probably never raced a car around those circuits so you're not going to have any point of reference or even the tools to transpose that virtual experience to the real world when you get there.



nope, i'm not missing the point mate, simulators are all fine and dandy, but it doesnt replace REAL experience; be it racing cars, flying jets or skydives from planes..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Man I was in a really gnarly wind tunnel zoo dive once. It all went to hell on exit. The main chunk funneled and split and we wound up hundreds of feet apart, it took us about 5000 ft just to catch the low guy and then the levels were off and it whip-lashed like a bucking bronco as we reformed, but we got that first point in before we reached our break-off altitude.

The pressure was unbelievable because we were running out of altitude.

Who says tunnel time can't replace free-fall time?B|

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Brad, you make some good points about the skills that come from tunnel instructor training. (& we share a birthday, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.) ;)

But I gotta disagree with you on this one, for one main reason: tunnel time does not equal skydives...and AFF instructors are teaching skydiving, not freefall.

As many have said, there are things you can't teach in the tunnel - spotting, aircraft emergencies, canopy flight, etc - that you get to practice on almost every jump. As you and others in support of the change have responded, "You still have to pass the course, and 260 jumps is enough to learn about spotting." But all those things are irrelevant. IMO, what the course doesn't evaluate is what that freefall time is there to represent: the intangibles.

If you've made 360 skydives, you'll have had more bad openings. More bad spots. More line twists. More chances at having to cut away. You may have seen a student land on a roof, or in a tree. You'll have landed off more often. You may have seen a student stand up and fall off the trailer on the way to the plane. God forbid, you may have been there when a close friend died.

All of these things can't be learned from a tunnel. Nor can they be tested in a ratings course. They're just things that make you a better instructor. This is why I'm in favor of adding a 'time in sport' requirement to the AFF-I rating. There are certain things you can't know, unless you're there.

You know I'm a huge fan of the tunnel. Hell, I would've had a much harder time passing my AFF-I course if I didn't have as much tunnel time logged as I have.

But in this case, you have to ask yourself: what's best for the student? Because that's what's most important here. Does it help a student to allow people with extensive tunnel time to skip a few jumps in their quest to become AFF-I's? If all AFF-I's pass a practical exam, then no. That should be weeding out the ones with inferior freefall skills.

Does it hurt the student? Not necessarily, either. But it seems more likely to me that someone with only 260 jumps' experience spotting, or dealing with emergencies, or riding the plane down, etc, would hurt a student more than help them.

I agree that some AFF-I's could be better on their belly with some tunnel time. No doubt. But I'll take a grizzled old skydiver with 500 jumps and decent flying ability (decent enough to pass the practical eval jumps) over a 240-jump-wonder tunnel instructor any day. Because they've been there, done that. And more importantly, they've had the patience to recognize the value of experience. They understand that it's about the student, not them.

(And I say that with about 800 jumps and almost 50 hours of tunnel time, paid for out of my own pocket.)

Signatures are the new black.

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Dorbie,

After watching these videos, I've decided to offer you free tunnel coaching...and anyone else that's in those videos.

I think a lot of the people chiming in here are 100% spot on about the differences and about the need for caution in considering this proposal. That being said, dives like these don't happen when people train in wind tunnels. It's cheaper, safer, and improves your skills faster. Not all of your skills, just the ones you use to, you know, fly your body around in freefall.

Your comment on that first youtube video was: Sometimes it's just more fun when there's a screw-up.

I disagree...everything is more fun when you're good at it.

Thanks for playing. :)

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Dorbie,

After watching these videos, I've decided to offer you free tunnel coaching...and anyone else that's in those videos.

I think a lot of the people chiming in here are 100% spot on about the differences and about the need for caution in considering this proposal. That being said, dives like these don't happen when people train in wind tunnels. It's cheaper, safer, and improves your skills faster. Not all of your skills, just the ones you use to, you know, fly your body around in freefall.

Your comment on that first youtube video was: Sometimes it's just more fun when there's a screw-up.

I disagree...everything is more fun when you're good at it.

Thanks for playing. :)



Nice try but you're full of it. I'm flying the camera in the video titled "7-way ... chasing the low guy", so your comment as directed at me is a stretch. It is fun to try to catch a low timer who funnels through the base. I do train in the tunnel with tunnel coaches. I just don't confuse it with real skydiving and nothing in the tunnel comes close to that kind of jump.

You seem to have missed the point of that video in your attempt at a cheap shot. That video is about adapting to a dynamic situation with the large separations involved with the adrenaline of a real skydive. You don't get that in a tunnel.

EVERYONE on that jump, even the weaker skydivers gained experience you cannot earn in a tunnel no matter how much time you put in there.

If any of those jumpers asked me if they should do some tunnel training they'd get an enthusiastic recommendation from me. Substituting tunnel time for freefall time for qualifying AFFIs is still a really dumb idea.

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>After watching these videos, I've decided to offer you free
>tunnel coaching...and anyone else that's in those videos.

This is a good example of what tunnel people miss. You're not used to having someone do video (since you don't need camera flyers in the tunnel) so you never even considered that he might have been doing video. Is this something that is tested in the AFF course? Nope, it's just something that most skydivers just know intuitively - but that tunnel people might miss. It's a very small example, of course. But if an AFF-I forgets there might be a camera above the student before he dumps them out it could get to be a bigger problem. (Even though the camera guy's job is to get out of the way.)

>That being said, dives like these don't happen when people train in wind
>tunnels.

Oh, they absolutely do. I've used the Perris tunnel for training people for PPP bigways and while it's a great tool, it doesn't teach you some of the more critical things about bigways - like what to reference in a larger dive, what speed to approach it at or how to deal with large unstable formations.

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Shouldn't you be at the DZ instead of sitting in front of a computer?

My comments were meant to irritate Dorbie who was taking shots at tunnel flyers. There's bad skydivers and there's plenty of bad "tunnel people." Tunnels don't teach all of the skills you need to skydive and anyone who disagrees is a fool. They teach one set of skills that are applicable to skydiving.

And don't worry, Bill, I can figure out what's happening in a video. Thanks for the help. And if this sort of stuff is still happening on dives, is it possible they need a different coach? :ph34r:

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I think that a few hours of tunnel time should be a requirement instead of a "instead of ff time" cop out. also i think a aff candidate should have at least 200 jumps as 'coaches' as a qualification for the aff rating. the above requirements would help ensure the instructors have the flying as well as teachings skills necessary as well as ensuring they have more experience. we have all seen the recent tandem video disaster, one of probably many that never made it to the public eye, now how many aff jumps do you think have gone bat shit crazy that no one has even seen or heard of?

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My comments were meant to irritate Dorbie who was taking shots at tunnel flyers.



Trolling is against forum rules.

If you think my posts were taking shots at "tunnel flyers" then you've gotten the wrong idea.

I book tunnel time and value the coaching there.

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>Shouldn't you be at the DZ instead of sitting in front of a computer?

I would be if I wasn't home taking care of a very demanding tiny skydiver.

>And if this sort of stuff is still happening on dives, is it possible they need
>a different coach?

Definitely! And some more practice jumps on smaller dives, and some tunnel time if they can get it.

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How many times since then has a student spun or rolled over and remained laterally within a 15ft circle?



Never. But the point is you still can learn the mechanics of how to stop a spin or do a rollover in the tunnel. Understand, I agree that the mechanics can be taught but that I still think replacing tunnel for skydives is a terrible idea.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron - the motorcycle analogy refers to riding in traffic and on roads where you don't know what's around the next corner, not to mention people coming into your lane from the other direction... it is not false. I can very easily learn techniques on a closed course and then apply that knowledge to riding on the road.



It is false, one is ridding a bike in traffic the other is ridding a bike on a track.... Both are riding a bike, manipulating the controls of a BIKE. That has nothing to do with tunnel v skydiving.

The tunnel does not have gear, it does not have a time limit, it does not have an exit, it does not having spotting, it does not have most of skydiving. It only teaches a very small aspect of skydiving, body flight. Important yes, but not the only thing.

Your motorcycle analogy traffic vs track would be like jumping at a multi-plane boogie or doing a solo out of a Cessna.

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Many of the experienced instructors complain that the AFF/I rating course is a joke so what exactly are you guys trying to save here?



Making it more of a joke.

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but there are still no friends below 2k and AFAIC, that's the real mental challenge of being an AFF/I, at least from an outsider's perspective.



And you can't learn that in the tunnel... You can learn that in freefall.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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That being said, dives like these don't happen when people train in wind tunnels.



False. I have several hundred hours tunnel time and have still been on teams (that I trained with in the tunnel) that had a funnel.

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My comments were meant to irritate Dorbie who was taking shots at tunnel flyers.



Got it, you were trolling.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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We already have a severe problem with up jumpers showing a lack of skill and decision-making with regard to canopy control, and we want to make it easier for potential AFFI's to SKIP actual skydives!!??

How about: do the six hours and STFU about your awesome backflying skills because you can barely fly a canopy to save your own life, let alone teach someone else how to do it. Skydiving is not just about how well you can bore a hole in space in freefall, there are aircraft procedures, emergency aircraft procedures, spotting, exits, opening, canopy control, landing, field stowing gear, packing, debriefing, gearing up, gear check, buddy gear check..... none of that is covered with "tunnel time."

I wonder if all my freefall time will allow me to automatically become a tunnel coach?

top

Disclaimer: not an official USPA opinion, just my own.



and a damn good one, well said.....

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It is false, one is ridding a bike in traffic the other is ridding a bike on a track.... Both are riding a bike, manipulating the controls of a BIKE. That has nothing to do with tunnel v skydiving.


And that is exactly what tunnel time is, you take away the most dangerous factors (on the road, that's traffic and unexpected obstacles) in skydiving that's canopy deployment and traffic and that pesky dying thing and you can train in a more focussed environment. If you think track or closed course riding is as dangerous as street riding then I'm not sure what I can say to you. I know you ride too so I guess it's just a difference of opinion.

That only 360 jumps are required to get the 6 hours of freefall is fucking ridiculous. For some reason I've always had it in my head that you needed 500 jumps. Fuck that, I've changed my opinion, there's no way in hell that someone with 300 jumps should be AFF at all or 360 for that matter. Our licenses are pathetic. sigh

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And that is exactly what tunnel time is



No, tunnel time is like riding a bike and trying to claim it is the same as a motorcycle.

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That only 360 jumps are required to get the 6 hours of freefall is fucking ridiculous.



You know what is even more ridiculous? 300 jumps.

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Our licenses are pathetic. sigh



Agreed.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The world was different when those requirements started up. Most DZs had Cessnas, and most jumpers going for AFF ratings had S/L JM or I experience (meaning hop and pops after dealing with and putting out students). So the likely number of jumps for 6 hours of freefall was much higher than it is in many places now.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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*disclaimer – I’m not talking about anyone in particular, avoid superimposing anything*

The discussion at hand should be more focused on setting a high standard for the AFFI course.

It was mentioned above “We already have AFFI ratings being handed out like candy.” This is very true in the USPA system. A jumper with 500 skydives, even if they are full altitude, is only 8hrs (approx) of freefall. That is not a lot.

I’ll break this down into a few categories:

1. Freefall skills to safely manipulate / save the student.

a. Tunnel helps with freefall skills; there is no argument about that. It’s an easier way to get time in manipulating the airflow. The muscle memory loss is less due to the shorter turn around time (more saturation) of airflow time in tunnel vs the sky.

b. The CSPA system adds tunnel time to the PFF (virtually the same as AFF) as a way of ensuring your have more memory of how to recover students. Its also used to “vet” jumpers who want to become PFF’s as they will be told what to continue to work on in there flying skills if they are not good enough yet before spending all the money on a course.

c. Tunnel should not be used in lieu of the extra skydives. As mentioned above 500 skydives is still a very in-experienced jumper.

d. The progression (specific tunnel tasks, not just flying around) covers:


i. Maintenance of proximity. If you need to “hang on” to a student you are making the jump harder for them. IMO you must be able to fly a grip without putting any pressure of the student. I’ve seen too many AFFI’s hanging 6 inches below the student…. Then the student wonders why it was so hard to do the turns required on the jump.

ii. Stability. If you cannot fly through a few burbles while being pushed and pulled… practice more. Even a bad exit is easy to recover on the hill if you have the ability to let go with one hand, reach over and correct the student (pushing chin up) or if you can roll your elbow under there arm and the other elbow under there thigh and force them into an arch. This way the student does not flip, you don’t have to worry about an instructor “falling off”

iii. Skill analysis and the use of signals. You learn quickly when a hand signal is too close, they don’t see it. If the signal is not clear or blocked, obviously they don’t respond.

iv. Spin control (flat and inverted) This one takes people a while to get in the air. Using the tunnel for practice might limit the spin to a 14 ft area, but it teaches you the mechanics of reliably flying under there spinning limbs, popping up into the gap and stopping the spin immediately. From there its easy to get them a smile and a thumbs up (to calm them), flip them over and carry on. If you’re concerned about being able to close within that 10 ft area as they are spinning in the sky….. Practice more RW. Learn how to put on sudden acceleration and deceleration.

v. Inverted recovery. The tunnel gives you a chance to learn to fly nice and tight to adjust to the faster speeds of a student on there back. They will not be doing the 120 MPH ideal and you have no time to stop and put on weight. (I know this sounds sarcastic, it is not intended to be. I have seen many AFFI’s struggling to get down to an inverted student who is doing 135-140mph as they have no real airflow time at those speeds).

2. Experience in teaching. This is the big one. A jumper with 400 jumps just has not learnt all the “little things” or “tricks” that need to be adapted to the learning style of your specific student. Some will get canopy right away, others will struggle. Knowing the seven major ways to teach canopy to the different learning styles makes you a great instructor. Usually you will only learn this by being around other instructors and over time, picking up on the different ways of explaining things in all aspects of skydiving as listed below:

a. Equipment
b. In aircraft
c. Exit
d. Freefall
e. Canopy
f. Landing

At 400 jumps, regardless of your own flying skills you don’t know all the little things about each stage of the skydive or the best methods to teach them to each learning style.

Before people start to try and pick this apart:

1. Read the intent of the paragraphs, don’t pick a single word and focus on it.

2. Accept certain facts: Tunnel is a great tool to learn freefall skills, it does not help in other areas of technical knowledge in the sport.

3. My experience:

a. I was one of the fast 400 jumpers. By that stage I had lots of tunnel time and felt that my flying was quite good. Looking back on it my flying was good, but my technical knowledge on all the aspects other then freefall was quite limited. At that stage I had less then 2 years in the sport.

b. I am writing this from the perspective of tons of tunnel time (RW and other), lots of AFF/PFF jumps and lots of RW skydives. None of my jumps are tandem.

c. The only times I have seen instructors lose there student on a jump were new AFFI with only 550-700 jumps, very little tunnel (less then 5 hrs of tunnel time).

My bottom line: The AFF standard should be increased; not chipped away by these sorts of initiatives.
Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

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All...

I emailed the USPA a nice little ditty with my opinion. I did not get a reply or acknowledgement, but I assume they read it.

If you feel concern, I would, instead of arguing here, send your own opinion to the decision makers.

For the record, I am against shortening the six hours with tunnel time. In fact, I would support 10 hours of total freefall, with no more than 3 AFF specific coaching in the tunnel counting towards the rating (backflying in the tunnel is not an AFF skillset), plus mandatory continuing education hours (most likely in canopy control, but with open ended options). But in the short term, this poll was not about increasing the required experience, but the first step in increasing the rating is to hold firm on the current requirement.


In my letter to the USPA I gave a few examples of what has happened in real jumps to support my claims, I tried to keep passion and emotion out of it. I don't want to influence your opinions by expressing my concerns, but I encourage AFFIs to share with the USPA real examples to support their opinions.

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1. Read the intent of the paragraphs, don’t pick a single word and focus on it.



I see you've tried to post stuff on dz.com before..:D

("their" is a word):ph34r:

nice post

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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