popsjumper 2 #26 February 7, 2012 QuoteI just find that everything you say is so sad, Brother. Such a wonderful opportunity for so much more. True. The sad fact is that with 100 jumps how much "more" would you expect a 100-jump wonder to be able to handle? I do see your point about the comparisons...and I only somewhat agree.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #27 February 7, 2012 Quote I understand the roles and responsibilities of a Coach as well as you do and would point you back to your post #7. We're saying the same thing. After I made my reply I read your follow up and saw that were were saying the same thing. Good to know. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #28 February 7, 2012 Quote Here's a fun thought, what if you chaged the structure of the program, so at 100 jumps you could take only the ground school portion of the coach course, and in turn, only exercise the ground-based privledges of a coach? Then, once you had 200 jumps, you could add-on the air skills portion, and begin to jump with students. Jumper content to wait until 200 jumps could simply take the complete course all at once. I would support that in a flash. I love the way you think! QuoteHow many 100 jump candidates do you think you'll lose? Whatever the number is, those are the ones who don't give two shits about coaching, and are 100% interested in getting paid to jump, or jumping for free, or having the 'prestige' of walking the plane as an 'instructor' with their very own 'student'. . . That's why you'll see a sharp decline in sub 200 jump candidates if the progarm were changed in the way I outlined above. If you made it just 'teaching', you see that most jumpers don't give a crap about teaching. Losing the parasites would be a good thing. I don't know how anybody could argue against that. QuoteAs much talk as there is about what the program is supposed to be, we all know what it's turned into. Which is why so many threads talk about the current rating system....it could be a lot better. QuoteTo add to that, all the talk about 'supervision' is also mostly non-sense. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of coaches are unsupervised, and are simply handed a student and told them which level they are on. My money is on "that's the case in overwhelming numbers". QuoteSo someone can watch them demonstrate useless freefall skills? Level control and center point turns? Ooooops. MAN OVERBOARD! Useless skills?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #29 February 8, 2012 QuoteSo someone can watch them demonstrate useless freefall skills? Level control and center point turns? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ooooops. MAN OVERBOARD! Useless skills? Sure. Neither of those skills are required for making a safe parachute descent from an airplane. If you had not isolated my quote, it would have shown that my suggestion was to take the $150-ish the student spends on those two coach jumps, and dedicate it towards a canopy control course. That amount could pay for 5/6 hop n pops and an instructor to teach the course. You tell me, don't level control and center point turns seem useless in comparison to the skills one would pick up doing 5 or 6 hop n pops during a canopy control course? Yet those are the types of things we have students focusing on (and coaches 'teaching') but there's little to no attention paid to canopy control, and none of it on dedicated jumps, it's all as an afterthought to a freefall skills jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #30 February 8, 2012 Quote.... take the $150-ish the student spends on those two coach jumps, and dedicate it towards a canopy control course. That amount could pay for 5/6 hop n pops and an instructor to teach the course. Right on. We should be teaching survival BEFORE fun. The system as it stands has its priorities all wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #31 February 8, 2012 Quote You tell me, don't level control and center point turns seem useless in comparison to the skills one would pick up doing 5 or 6 hop n pops during a canopy control course? YES! Of course! It's just that there was the word "useless" and no indication of "comparison" in the text I replied to that I saw. Compared to? Yes! But let's not diminish the importance of the life-saving freefall skills either, eh? Coaches CAN help with that if no other reason than being a reference point and evaluating observer. Quote Yet those are the types of things we have students focusing on (and coaches 'teaching') but there's little to no attention paid to canopy control, and none of it on dedicated jumps, it's all as an afterthought to a freefall skills jump. You are preaching to the choir in my case. Amen.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #32 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Yet those are the types of things we have students focusing on (and coaches 'teaching') but there's little to no attention paid to canopy control, and none of it on dedicated jumps, it's all as an afterthought to a freefall skills jump. You are preaching to the choir in my case. Amen. Not sure I agree with that... When I do a coach jump, I first discuss the student with one of his/her AFFI’s. I always ask about the student and get advice about the dive before I work with the student. I do this not because I'm unsure of myself, but because I'm surrounded by great instructors. I always learn something when I ask questions. You see, I'm an "Instructor in Training". I'm a Coach! When I'm asked to do a coach jump, I agree to work with a student who’s been "cleared" to work with me. And that work covers all aspects of the dive. Including things like planning and flying the pattern, canopy control, gearing up and gear checks. I answer any questions the student has for me. The answers I'm unsure of, I refer to the AFFI who’s overseeing my instruction. I take this job very serious and I try to give the student his money’s worth. Am I the greatest Coach to walk the planet? Not even close. But, I’m learning. Do I Coach for the money? Really? Do I coach so I can “have my own student” to walk out to the plane? Sorry, but I find that idea insulting. Do I think 100 jumps are sufficient to do what a coach is expected to do? NO!!! Although I’m not in agreement with you about the coach program being useless, I would like to see the Coach rating requirements strengthened. Personally speaking, I like this “middle ground” where I can practice being an Instructor. I believe the system does work if applied correctly.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #33 February 9, 2012 QuoteDo I Coach for the money? Really? Do I coach so I can “have my own student” to walk out to the plane? Sorry, but I find that idea insulting. Do I think 100 jumps are sufficient to do what a coach is expected to do? NO!!! Those were my assertions about the program, but of course they don't apply to everyone. You have far more than 100 jumps, and have been in the sport longer than most coaches have been alive. You're past the point of looking for validation or status on the DZ. For a new guy with 100 jumps, who can't swoop or fly a small canopy, who doesn't get invited on all the 'cool' jumps just yet, and who doesn't fly like a hero when he does, the coach program certainly a cure for all of those. Suddenly that same jumper is a 'staff member', and is getting paid to jump. Thay have 'official business' when they walk to the plane and have been granted formal authority over a student jumper. There are a variety of benefits to the coach program, and the money, free jumps and ego stroke cannot be denied and are probably a bigger draw to the newer jumpers than the opportunity to teach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #34 February 9, 2012 QuoteNot sure I agree with that... When I do a coach jump, .... Well, we're talking in general terms...across the board in skydiving. We were not addressing you specifically. In general terms...across the board, do you agree/disagree that Coaches don't address canopy control as well as should be?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 February 9, 2012 Quote There are a variety of benefits to the coach program, and the money, free jumps and ego stroke cannot be denied and are probably a bigger draw to the newer jumpers than the opportunity to teach. You are too kind. You used the word "probably". My opinion is stronger: I would have used the word "definitely". Hence, the use of the word "parasites" in an earlier post. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShotterMG 0 #36 February 9, 2012 Can somebody please tell me what DZ sends up 100 jump coaches for paid check dives with students? I work at a small DZ but I have never seen that. We use coaches mostly for retrains and creaper work and they are always closely supervised. In air is done mostly by AFFI's or trusted coaches with at least a few hundred jumps. We never charge for a coached jump. At most they pay for our slot but more often we just jump with them. As instructors we make it our business to jump with everyone on a regular basis, from student status to hundreds of jumps. Always checking to see everyone is progressing safely. Has anyone here with less than 200 jumps ever been paid to do a coach jump with a student? I am very curious and guess it is very unlikely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #37 February 9, 2012 Quote Well, we're talking in general terms...across the board in skydiving. We were not addressing you specifically. In general terms...across the board, do you agree/disagree that Coaches don't address canopy control as well as should be? In general terms.... What I have seen is qualified coaches working with students under the direct supervision of (10K+ jump) Instructors. And, yes, they do hit on canopy flight, spotting, patterns, etc. They spend a lot of time before each dive, and more time after, working with the student. Then, they debrief with an AFFI. Keep in mind I'm not as experienced as my years in the sport might lead you to believe. But, I do think the Coach program works if the Coach is up to the task. [ /u] I also believe that 100 jumps are not enough for most Coach candidates and 200 jumps are not enough for most to fly a camera. I’d be ok with doubling both numbers. I find it hard to believe that the drop zones I jump at are the exceptions to the rule? Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #38 February 9, 2012 I've gone on a few 'slot covered' coach jumps starting around 130ish jumps, many more on my own dime. I worked with them on things between recurrency, basic RW, canopy flight/pattern flying. Would I say that I was the best coach out there? Nope, but I met the standards set forth and enabled the student to learn without 'inhibiting' it."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 February 10, 2012 My bad. I fell victim to the 34 years and 1500 jumps. I thought you got out and about more. Sorry.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #40 February 10, 2012 Well, I'm talking in general terms...across the board in skydiving. I am not addressing your DZ specifically. It's great the your DZ operates that way.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
