RSLs

[Iflyme 0]

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When I got off student status I talked to my instructor about it. He had one question for me:
"When the time comes, will you pull the silver handle?"
I said "Yep."
He said, "Well there you go."

Well I think we would all like to feel that way, but the fact is, you can't be positive that's how you will react. Check the fatality reports, and see how many people died because they didn't have an RSL -- and never pulled the silver handle. That's why I'm jumping with an RSL right now -- until I experience a malfunction and cutaway, and learn how I react, I want that RSL in place (at 94 jumps, I'm still a novice and obviously have never cutaway).
Good thread, BTW!

[Zennie 0]

There were a lot of other factors that went into my decision not to go RSL, spinning mals, broken risers, too many "special circumstances" to disconnect. But that was essentially the bottom line, because that's the real purpose of an RSL -- will you pull silver? If no, maybe you need one, if yes, let's look at the pros and cons.

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Well I think we would all like to feel that way, but the fact is, you can't be positive that's how you will react.

Certainly true. Maybe a better statement would not be "will you" but "do you have confidence that you will"? My answer is still yes.
Now a lot of it may depend on your cutaway procedure. If you do the look red, reach red, look silver, pull red, reach silver, pull silver sequence, an RSL may not be such a bad idea because there is the possibility that you may not get your hands on the silver handle in time after the cutaway and subsequent harness shift. I certainly wouldn't want to lose precious time and altitude trying to get my hands on the silver handle.
However, I use the two-handed approach. So when I cut away, I'm already holding my reserve handle. All I gotta do is pull it. If I have the presence of mind to cut away my main, I think I'll have the presence of mind to follow up with the reserve pull. Of course I can't guarantee it, but I feel pretty confident about it.

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Check the fatality reports, and see how many people died because they didn't have an RSL -- and never pulled the silver handle.

Definitely true. What I would like to know in that respect is what sort of reserve/cutaway system they were trained on. If you look at the Cypres saves reports, a lot of the cutaway/no-pulls were by people who were trained on SOS systems and then wound up jumping the dual system.
Now FWIW, my instructor doesn't like RSLs either, so we pretty much were in agreement on the whole thing.
But I agree, RSLs are a matter of personal choice. I don't think they're bad necessarily, I just don't think they're right for me.
Oh, and if this rambles, sorry. I'm half drunk on margaritas right now.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Aviatrr 0]

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Check the fatality reports, and see how many people died because they didn't have an RSL -- and never pulled the silver handle.

Those people did not die because they didn't have an RSL. They died because they didn't pull the reserve handle. PERIOD! If somebody has an RSL, suffers a spinning malfunction and chops, they could very possibly end up with the same result. The bridle could wrap around them as they spin violently. Hell, it happened a few weeks ago in Sebastian, FL on an AFF student when he had a Cypres fire.

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(at 94 jumps, I'm still a novice and obviously have never cutaway).

Hmmm.. I'm no psychic, but I sense some pie in your future.. Mike

[Iflyme 0]

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If you look at the Cypres saves reports, a lot of the cutaway/no-pulls were by people who were trained on SOS systems and then wound up jumping the dual system.

Good point - I hadn't considered that...

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Maybe a better statement would not be "will you" but "do you have confidence that you will"?

I am always preparing for a malfunction -- on the bus in to work, sitting here at the computer... here's my drill: I reach back, pull and throw, look up, say to myself "this is a malfunction", look down at my chest, reach to where my handles will be, then punch right, punch left. I am confident I will do it correctly when the time comes, but at least for the first one, I still want that RSL there. Maybe when I gain the confidence of going thru the real thing successfully, I'll re-think my situation.

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I'm half drunk on margaritas right now.

I'm only 1/4 drunk on beer

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[riggerrob 558]

In response to des' question about "why" a tandem master would want an RSL ....
How about if, as you fall away from your bum main canopy the students panics and grabs your left wrist?
Back in the good old days - before Cypri were invented - I plummeted through 5,000' with more students having a death grip on my pull hand than I care to remember. The mere memory gives me chills!

[GeekStreak 0]

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There was definately NOT an RSL on the gear I jump as a student. AAD, YES!

DOH!!! I DID check with my instructor and I was mistaken.
THERE IS AN RSL ON THE STUDENT RIGS. I WAS WRONG .
1111,
GeekStreak

[jfields 0]

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I WAS WRONG

GeekStreak, as I am sure that is the first time you've ever been wrong, you owe beer! Justin
"If it can't kill you, it isn't worth doing."

[GeekStreak 0]

That was really hard for me to say, Justin. THANKS FOR RUBBING IT IN!!!
1111,
GeekStreak

[jfields 0]

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That was really hard for me to say, Justin. THANKS FOR RUBBING IT IN!!!

Not a problem. I'm sure you'd do me the same favor. What are friends for, if not to point out your faults and never let you forget? You should hear the flack we give the guy at our DZ whole had a huge, wide-open landing zone to land into and put his canopy over the windsock instead. He'll never live that down.
Justin
"If it can't kill you, it isn't worth doing."

[Aviatrr 0]

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DOH!!! I DID check with my instructor and I was mistaken.
THERE IS AN RSL ON THE STUDENT RIGS. I WAS WRONG

Well, I'm glad you checked.. Knowing everything possible about your gear is a good thing.. Did you have your instructor show you the RSL so that you can identify one on other rigs? It's very easy to spot - and may change your emergency procedures.. Be aware that they can be attached on either side(depending on rig type), or even both sides on some..
Learning is what this place is all about.. Glad I could help..
Mike

[GeekStreak 0]

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Did you have your instructor show you the RSL so that you can identify one on other rigs?

Nope. I spoke with him over the phone. He set me straight. Have no doubt, I'll find that bloody RSL and learn how to operate it before jumping again... some time between July 13-15 1111,
GeekStreak

[BFK 0]

I asked Glenn Bangs, the former director of Safety and Training at USPA about RSL's a year or so ago.
He told me that he himself wears one and will continue to do so. He related to me a story of his in which he had a highly spinning malfunction during a jump in which deployment was initiated around 2000 feet. He reached down to grab the cutaway and reserve handle and found that he could only grab the cutaway handle. The spinning malfunction caused his harness to shift which put his cutaway handle near the center of his chest and pinned his reserve handle behind his back where he could not reach it. All he could do was cutaway, which he did initiate at 1200 feet. Before he could continue struggling to grasp the pinned reserve handle, his RSL fired his reserve.
He told me then that without the RSL it is likely he wouldn't have survived.
Personally, I will use an RSL until I have between 750 and 1000 skydives. At that point I will reconsider my air awareness, malfunction handling and opinion on the RSL.
For now I think it is a good safety net.
Of course - It shouldn't be used (or should be disconnected) when flying camera, doing CReW, skysurfing, when cutting away from a dual squares situation, or in the event of a canopy collision which requires a cutaway.
If I ever do remove the RSL, I will never pull below 3000 feet. I'll want that extra time to find my reserve handle should I ever find myself in the situation Glenn Bangs experienced.
Brad

[spectre230 0]

[CJM 0]

It seems to me that you can "what if" this issue to death. The possible permutations for all the things that can go wrong on a skydive number in the millions. There's no end to the number of situations you can imagine in which an RSL would be a bad thing. But in the end, safety in this sport is about risk management and playing the odds. All of the fatality reports in at least the last 10 years support the idea that statistically RSLs save lives. You can certainly imagine many situations in which an RSL could cause a main/reserve entanglement or deploy your reserve in such a manner that you end up with severe line twists, but the fatality statistics simply don't support these scenarios as being particularly likely.
Certainly nobody wants to be the first to die as a result of one of these unusual conditions, but that's where risk management comes into play. If you have to choose between guarding against the unlikely scenario vs the remote scenario, your best bet is to protect against the unlikely scenario because statistically it's the more dangerous possibility. So look at the statistics...are you more likely to get a main/reserve entanglement from an RSL or are you more likely to smack the ground because you failed to pull the silver handle? Odds are you are more likely to die because you failed to pull silver (for any number of possible reasons - we can't ask those who didn't pull what happened, but it can even happen to experienced jumpers according to the statistics). Can an RSL cause bad things to happen? Absolutely. But it's a remote possibility. It's not a question of confidence that you'll do the right thing. I doubt that many of the fatalities of the last several years lacked confidence in their ability to pull the silver handle, but it takes more than confidence to keep from bouncing. It takes intelligent risk management.
The RSL debate reminds me a lot of the seatbelt debate (not in function, but in the form of arguements you hear). Statistics prove that seatbelts save lives, but there used to be a lot of people who wouldn't wear one because they were concerned about getting trapped in the car under water or not being able to get loose if the car was burning. Are those real dangers? Sure they are. Are they likely? Not as likely as a run of the mill accident in which you're thrown through the windshield. I wear a seatbelt because the odds say that I should.
This is always an interesting debate because it places at odds two competing characteristics of skydivers. Skydivers are typically safety conscious, equipment geeks who will debate the pros and cons of every procedure or piece of equipment ad nauseum (this thread being a good example). But they're also extremely confident individuals who simply refuse to believe that they might not pull red and then pull silver when the time comes.
In the end, it's still a personal decision, but make it an informed, carefully considered decision based upon what you think is the most likely danger you'll face.

[PalmettoTiger 1]

Well spoken!!
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[Kirils 1]

I've had 4 chops in my time flying and would have probably been dead on 3 if I have an RSL. Most mals ae spinning
and you need to get stable be pulling the reserve. My first mal
was on a rig with an RSL. The main ripped down the center and I had a line hooked under my container. I was in a violent spin and when I cut away the main became tangled in the reserve pilot. i had a reserve out, but it was twisted all the way into the canopy (thank God it was a round). I had pulled high and got the thing to spin open at about 600'.
Pull high and never use an RSL!
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[billvon 2,380]

> Most mals ae spinning and you need to get stable be pulling the reserve.
Incorrect. Reserves are designed to open while unstable. The Racer manual even states explicitly that you should _not_ be stable when opening your reserve - a head high attitude, such as one experiences immediately after a cutaway, is preferable.
>I was in a violent spin and when I cut away the main became tangled in the reserve pilot.
> i had a reserve out, but it was twisted all the way into the canopy (thank God it
> was a round). I had pulled high and got the thing to spin open at about 600'.
This sort of problem cannot generally happen with modern gear, as the reserve PC is not attached to the reserve on a modern rig.
>Pull high . . .
Good advice.
>and never use an RSL!
Bad advice, if your objective is to have fewer skydiving fatalities at the end of the year.
-bill von

[DanG 1]

GeekStreak,
I'm one of the Coaches/Videographers at Orange, I wonder if we have met. I'm sorry to hear that your student progression is going to have to wait, is it financial?
On the RSL debate, I would also like to comment that camera folks don't use RSL's because of the higher possibility of a departing main snagging on a camera helmet. I had mine removed when I started jumping camera, but I also started pulling higher because of the higher possibility of complex malfunctions. I personally think an RSL is neither good nor bad per se, but can be good or bad for different situations. I would never use one with a camera helmet, and don't really want one under the elliptical main that I usually jump. On the other hand, I know people who have been forced into extremely low cutaway situations where an RSL would really come in handy.
In short, it is a personnal decision which one should make after having all the facts. I'm encouraged to see that this discussion has remained informative and to the point, and not turned into a bitching/boasting match like it often does with these types of topics.
- Dan G

[PhreeZone 14]

This was a post I made in the talkback area about a month ago:
If you have to disconnect the rsl to pull your reserve you should'nt have it attached in the first place.
On most student gear the rsl is rigged so that its not possible to do a quick release like it is on sport gear. If you would try and release the rsl on it you could spend your entire life trying to get it off. On student gear you should never un-attach anything without express consent of the rigger maintaining the gear. If you disconnect the rsl to jump it and the next student grabs the rig, misses the rsl in the gear check and goes in because he only cut away thinking the rsl would save them, how would you feel?
If you are going to jump with an rsl you need to know the situations that the rsl could help and harm you in. If you are going to disconnect it just make sure you trust your emergency procedures. There has been more then one fatality due to the jumper never pulling the reserve handle after a cutaway. On the other hand an rsl was probally one of the causes of a recent fatality in Alabama.
The rule of thumb that I was taught and the one that I pass on for an rsl is:
Use it if you are unsure of your emergency procedues, never had a cutaway, just converted to a new container/system, converted to a new deployment ststem, or are new/lack currency or jump sledom.
Don't use one if you are jumping an Elliptcal canopy, a heavly loaded canopy, skysurfing, jumping a camera, doing CReW, jumping in heavy winds, jumping a Wingsuit,doing speed dives, or if you trust your procedues to the point that you could pull the handles with a broken arm/wrist/etc.
I personally dont use one (220 jumps / 0 cutaways) because I have been switching canopies so often that most risers that I use don't have the hook up for the rsl. With my former canopy I loaned the rig out and the rsl got hooked back up before I give it to any one that does'nt meet my specs to disconnect it. If you want to complain, I'll take the rig back.
Now that I'm looking at jumping a Camera I'm not even going to re-attach the rsl at my next Reserve repack. This means that my rig is'nt getting loaned out any more.(Plus the new canopy, a Cobalt, not many jumpers would want to jump in my rig anyways.)
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[chopchop 0]

Can't say it is the answer for everyone but I have had two cutaways where the RSL did it's job before I could get silver in my hand. The first one was a pretty mellow chop. The second one was a violently spinning mal with me on my back. I tried to disconnect the RSL but couldn't catch the little handle thing. Ended up turning on my side a little and chopping. The interesting part is I had a hell of a time pulling my cutaway pillow - it took both hands because it was pressed so hard against my body. Now, given enough altitude and I had it that time I probably could have gotten stable, found my silver and deployed my reserve. But what really happened is I arched into the relative wind - the cutaway launched me straight out, the reserve sprang off of my back and I was pretty quickly swinging down under my beautiful blue PD reserve. Pissed off about the cutaway and trying to spot my main but safe. I don't know that an RSL will be good in every situation but it sure worked well that time. oh, yeah, and the time before that time.
chopchop
PD makes canopies all day long, you only have one life, when in doubt, cut away...

[skreamer 1]

Thing that I notice about people who are anti-RSLs is that they tend to focus on one specific incident or claim that with an RSL they would definitely have died cutting away from their last violently spinning mal. Before I bought my new rig, I read up on the incident reports (Barry's fatalities site) and made my own decision. I got an RSL, I have 155 jumps so far and intend keeping that RSL even after my first cutaway (unless I get a camera, high ground winds etc.). I think a lot of people are anti-RSL because they are associated with students and don't look *cool*. Also, people will repeat verbatim what they have heard a canopy god say about double mals and think that it applies to them and their 1.1 wing loading as well.
It was quite heartening for me to meet one of the UK's most experienced skydivers (Eddie Carroll) who has over 12 000 jumps and still swears by RSLs (he has cut away from sub '80 Velocities 3 times WITH an RSL). I do sort of get annoyed by people who imply that I don't have the confidence to pull the silver myself, but I have no problem with telling them where to get off. Another annoying thing is other jumpers telling me 'Are you aware that you have an RSL on your rig?' or 'Are you aware that your RSL is connected?'.
I know I shouldn't mention it in this thread, but I wonder how many RSL slaggers would continue jumping without their Cypres? Sorry to bring AADs back into it, but if you aren't confident in your own abilities to skydive (and survive) without a Cypres, then you shouldn't be jumping EITHER.
Anyway, chopchop, stories like yours make me feel better about sticking to my decision to have/keep my RSL and not follow the rest of the flock. My life, my gear, I made a decision and I am sticking to it.
Will

[Merrick 0]

Love the reply Will, you're right... it is your gear, it is your life, it is your decision....period! A lot of people don't get this... if an RSL, or Cypress, or whatever is going to make you more comfortable, then so be it. I don't jump with an RSL but I do jump with a cypress, like you, I researched it thoroughly & came up with the opposite decision... now I'm not going to get into the whys & why nots of it, don't want to risk regurgitating some skygod verbatim, but I do want to disagree with one thing!

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"I wonder how many RSL slaggers would continue jumping without their Cypres? Sorry to bring AADs back into it, but if you aren't confident in your own abilities to skydive (and survive) without a Cypres, then you shouldn't be jumping EITHER."

Now, I'm sure you're expecting this, but the ONLY reason I choose to jump with a cypress is in the unfortunate possibility that some one knocks me unconscious in freefall. Whether they hit me in mid-swoop, cork into me, or whatever... the possibility does exist for this to happen. I'm sure that this is the biggest motivator for the majority of cypress jumpers. There have also been documented cases of freefall collisions where the jumper wasn't knocked unconscious, but had both shoulders dislocated rendering them helpless.... it's situations like these that I love the thought of jumping with a cypress, but in any other instance, I'm saving my own ass WELL before 750 ft!
I Am The Captain Of My Soul
Out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole. I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance my head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears, looms but the horror of the shade, and yet the menace of the years finds, and shall find me, unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.
William Earnest Henley
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[3fLiEr 0]

but I wonder how many RSL slaggers would continue jumping without their Cypres?
I would not have an RSL as I believe them to be dangerous - and would I continue jumping without my CYPRESS?? - phuq yeah - I have been known to intentionally turn it off!......
OK you listened to a guy who has positives to say about RSL - seems you shut your ears off to the negative side and ONLY listened to the positive - coz you will see on the fatalities site - RSL does cause problems - what about the problems that dont result in a death - where did you read about them?
Phuq it anyway as you say "my life my kit" etc - damn right!.... just like to disagree withcha Will!
One reason I dont want an RSL! - coz when I chop - I wanna be smoking it down.......... coz if the reserve dont work at 2000ft - it aint gonna be working at 500ft................. ;op
BSBD

[Donna 0]

Nice post, Skreamer. Hardly anyone at my DZ uses an RSL. I've heard quite a few people say, "As long as you have a CYPRES, you don't need an RSL." That may be true in some cases but not all and how do you know the CYPRES will work as it is suppose to? It bothers me that they say this but I'm a low-timer so why should anyone listen to me? I think it is a very individual choice and that everyone should do their homework and read all the pros and cons and then make an informed decision based on what they think is right for them. There is no right or wrong answer. There are just chances of bettering the odds for you. Even if you chose one where 90% of the time it would be the right thing to do, you could end up having an experience in the other 10%. Shit happens. It's a chance we all take. I have talked to a lot of people and read many articles and have come to the conclusion that at this point in time with my experience level and the canopy that I'm flying that an RSL is a good decision for me. I feel confident that I can perform my emergency procedures but I bet quite a few people on the CYPRES saves page and fatality reports pages did, too. Why didn't they pull silver after cutting away? In many cases we will never know the answer. My husband still has his RSL connected but keeps talking about having it taken off at his next repack. I tell him that it's his decision but to please look into both sides carefully first. I also remind him that what is best for him, may not be best for me and vise versa.
Skies,
D

[3fLiEr 0]

IMHO - RSL's - they are intended to save people who can only pull one handle.................
Think about how quick you initiate reserve drills - you dont need a RSL! - unless you panic SO much you think you may cock it up!...... have confidence in your capability to save yourself.........
BSBD