interesting & quite scary Drogue-Mal

[feuergnom 22]

this mal on the drogue happened on one of the last jumps this fall:
uneventfull exit from approx 9000 ft, get stable, throw drogue & check for drogue. thats when stuff got scary. as I didn't feel the drogue I took a glance over my shoulder to see what was going on only to find the bright pink drogue dancing like crazy on my back. next seconds I checked wether it got caught by me or the pax - negative (which is quite positive so to say)
reached around a few more times thinking: fuck, if I don't get rid of this shit soon I'll have to switch for plan B. at approx 6000 ft drogue decided to do it's job and deploy properly. thats also the time my video guy caught up with me again. rest of freefall, deployment, canopyride etc uneventfull

needless to say that I got some additional grey hair

upon reviewing the vid I extracted some stills - everybody is still scratching their heads on what exactly happened. as per the pics and video you can see the droguebridle dancing extracted over the tandem and the drogue on my back. We have no clue why the drogue was resting in this position for 15 sec
so whats your take on this????

technical details: Rigs a well maintained Strong Dual Hawk, Drogue & all bridles/lines changed this summer, still low jumps on it

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[stayhigh 2]

Toss the drogue like you mean it next time??

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[Arvoitus 1]

The drogue is upside down and the airflow in the burble is basically pushing it down against your back so it won't budge unless there is a stream of air that will push it off your back. Happened to me on the first jump I was instructor on. I was surprised how coolheaded the examiner seemed afterwards.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[jackwallace 3]

I had this happen to me 30 years ago. Fortunately the camera was straight in front of me. i had taken the pilot chute out and put it on my back. It was just lazyness on my part. After that I threw that thing sideways like it was on fire.

U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

[shveddy 0]

Get ahold of Tom Noonan at PD. He did my certification course and he had a really particular way of packing a Dual Hawk drogue that makes this a whole lot less likely.

I think it'll be somewhat difficult to properly explain, but the long and short of it is that first you leave about three feet of excess bridle and shove that in the bottom of the BOC. Then you make sure you stick it in the BOC with the opening of the roll pointed upwards; this way the relative wind actually keeps the roll closed. If it were upside down, the wind would blow it apart instantly. Overall, this allows the drogue to be thrown some distance from you before it begins to be pulled apart.

If that didn't make sense, call Tom Noonan for specifics or a better explanation.

Harder throws are always nice too, but everyone has a shitty day once and a while.

[Arvoitus 1]

Isn't the part about having the roll upwards the way the DH manual states how you should pack the drogue?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[shveddy 0]

Could have been in there as well. I just have a more distinct memory of Tom showing it to us and me thinking that I probably should have done that for all the packjobs I had packed before . I know a friend of mine had a similar mal and his wasn't packed that way.

[feuergnom 22]

thx to all for the responses so far - and it somehow relieves me to see that I'm not the only one with a drogue on the back

as for packing the drogue - usually I pack my own stuff but this time it was done by a packer the previous day. not sure how he did it and if the way I do it is the mentioned method. but I'll have a look into the manual to make sure I stick to the book.

as for actually "throwing" the drogue: with a drogue the sice of a strong one YMMV and mine certainly did

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[TomNoonan 1]

Hi feuergnom,

I don't want to speak for SE, so please take my comments as personal opinion based on my experience and time with the SE program.

I can think of two things that can attribute to such an event happening, even with a brand new drogue.

The first is the orientation of how the drogue is rolled in relationship to how it is placed in the boc pouch. Imagine that when rolled, the drogue ends up in the shape of a big hot dog bun. The open end of the bun would be the top of that last fold of the drogue.

Lay a rig down on the floor with the backpad on the floor and the reserve/main trays facing the ceiling (which represents the orientation of the rig and the relative wind during the drogue setting process assuming the drogue is set while stable) and then pull the drogue out. If you pull out the drogue and the opening of the "bun" is facing the floor, then the opening is facing into the relative wind. That means that as the drogue is pulled out, it is instantly starting to mushroom as the RW is going in the opening of the bun and starting to spread fabric.

If, on the other hand, you pull the drogue out and see that the drogue opening is facing the ceiling, that means the bottom of the "bun" is what is hitting the relative wind when you set the drogue. In doing so, the relative wind actually holds the drogue closed as it's extracted from the pouch and with a good tight drogue roll and a strong drogue set, the drogue will actually stay rolled until it runs to the end of the excess bridle that is stowed. That allows the drogue to cleanly clear the tandem pair before mushrooming and greatly reduces the chances of a drogue mushrooming on you as you set it.

(SE used to have a great picture of what I am talking about in an old brochure, the drogue was 3+ ft to the side of the tandem pair before it started to inflate in clean air.

The other possible cause is a scenario resulting from a launched head high exit into the relative wind. Now, I havent seen your exit, so I have no idea if this applies to you, but here it goes:

If you launch from a side door aircraft, say an Otter for example, and you launch 90 degrees towards the wing but keep your bodies facing the line of flight, you will most likely rotate 45-90 degrees or so to your left while still presenting to the relative wind. This puts the drogue pouch pointing almost straight up.

The tandem pair is stable (in the relative wind of the hill), head high, and starting that transition down the hill into a stable belly to earth orientation. If you throw the drogue at that moment however, you are basically setting the drogue directly above you in relation to the ground, but also directly into the relative wind that blows the drogue behind you, right into your burble.

It can be the "perfect" burble in that it's your "down the hill" burble as you transition from the horizontal rel wind to vertical rel wind, keeping the drogue on your back throughout that entire transition down the hill, and can stay there quite a long time if you don't break up the airflow over your back.

This process can accelerate you to tandem terminal of course if it doesnt clear, and as the tandem pair's vertical speed continues to increase, the burble effect gets stronger, making it less likely for the drogue to clear the burble on it's own the longer it sits there.

If you have any specific questions I can answer, please feel free to email me at [email protected] or find me on skype (dualhawk, go figure....lol) and give me a call.

There is a copy of this exact scenario on video somewhere and I am trying to remember where I saw it and who has it. I will see if I can get a copy of it and bring it to Skydive Expo.

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[BobMoore 0]

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The tandem pair is stable (in the relative wind of the hill), head high, and starting that transition down the hill into a stable belly to earth orientation. If you throw the drogue at that moment however, you are basically setting the drogue directly above you in relation to the ground, but also directly into the relative wind that blows the drogue behind you, right into your burble.

It can be the "perfect" burble in that it's your "down the hill" burble as you transition from the horizontal rel wind to vertical rel wind, keeping the drogue on your back throughout that entire transition down the hill, and can stay there quite a long time if you don't break up the airflow over your back.

I can't get my head clear on what you're saying here. Whether you're "on the hill" or not the drogue throw should be the same, out to the side and then up behind you.

Am I missing something here?

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[mircan 0]

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...as per the pics and video you can see the droguebridle dancing extracted over the tandem and the drogue on my back...

I think that I videoed three "mals" like this this year.
First two were about pretty used drogue that got replaced after it happened for the second time.
For me, as a camera guy, it really was scary... Watching that drogue and bridle dance around back of a tandem... Scary is that it lasts for quite some time.
I`m a mint Strong TI (still waiting for my licence papers...) so I would like to know how to avoid this happening.

dudeist skydiver #42

[feuergnom 22]

from what I learned from the answers so far is to pack the drogue properly. I still have to get my hands on a rig to figure out what tom noonan meant as I have a hard time picturing this in my mind...

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[mircan 0]

Here, I found one of my videos of the drogue in burble .
It cleared fast though, once the tandem pair went head low...

dudeist skydiver #42

[Abedy 0]

This one also shows a drogue - shortly - caught in a burble. In this case the TI as far as I see it, should have thrown the drogue with more power.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[mircan 0]

That was the drogue that got replaced.

dudeist skydiver #42

[Liemberg 0]

Seems pretty obvious to me: If the 'open end' is pointed @ the relative wind while throwing: (possible) Trouble. If the closed end (back if you will) is pointed @ relative wind: clean deployment / Home Free.

YMMV

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[tuffyjensen 0]

I think if you look closely at the video, the TI actually continued to hold on to the drogue (which is a huge no no) and it wasn't really in the burble. Once you have started the extraction of the drogue it must be one continuous motion to a good strong throw, never hold on to it after you have extracted it from the pouch, it greatly increases the risk of drogue bridle entanglement with the tandem pair.

The drogue packing that Tom is referring to is exactly how the manual explains packing the drogue, except the manual doesn't describe keeping the opening of the roll facing upward. See page 51 & 52.

http://www.strongparachutes.com/Documents/PDF_Files/dhtrevI.pdf

Also if you watch the first video it is an example of basically what Tom is talking about the hill burble, just in a slightly different way of getting in the position. The TI throws the drogue as the pair is on their left side and in the process of rotating left to a belly to earth position. The problem is that by throwing the drogue at that time he is actually throwing it right into the burble above them, the pairs right side, which becomes their back as it finishes the rotation and makes the burble even bigger. They were fortunate during the head down part that happened because the TI was bringing the students hands out, that the drogue bridle didn't get caught on a foot, it was very close.

Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order!
Tuffy

[livendive 8]

Quote

In this case the TI as far as I see it, should have thrown the drogue with more power.

He also should have let go of it, but I can see why he might have wanted to hold on to it...he was tumbling ass-end over teakettle because he didn't arch either.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Abedy 0]

I watched the video only at low resolution (small window) so I missed some of the details it seems. Woohoo, holding on to a drogue was taught a "never ever" during our TI course and we were shown examples of what the (quite long) bridle can do in this case... And, of course, throw drogue only when you are stable, f*ck yeah!

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[riggerrob 558]

Holding onto the drogue too long also guarantees more work for your rigger. He/she will have to patch that drogue after it slides up the sand-paper ... er Kevlar drogue bridle.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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And, of course, throw drogue only when you are stable, f*ck yeah!

Both drogue hucks looked okay to the relative wind to me.

[Fledgling 0]

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this mal on the drogue happened on one of the last jumps this fall:

I think it is important to refrain from calling this a drogue MAL as instructors need to understand and focus on the fact that this problem is caused by instructor error not gear failure. This scenario is easily avoided by simply paying a little more attention while deploying the drogue.
We all hear the saying don't use the drogue to get stable, but instructors seem to take that to mean get belly down and throw the drogue but then never really pay much more attention to it than that(set and forget). Pay more attention while deploying the drogue and you will end up with a better understanding of how the drogue behaves while being deployed with the tandem pair at different orientations to the relative wind.