Would you ever through a student out without a altimiter

[rifleman 61]

At my local DZ they give the students radios but in general they'll leave you alone unless you're wandering too far off the DZ for safety or doing something stupid.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Would you ever through a student out without a altimiter. Most would scream no - very lowed I think - this is a next step topic - so treat it like a test -

USPA SIM Section 2, K-2

2. All students are to be equipped with the following
equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:
a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]
b. a piggyback harness and container system that
includes a single-point riser release and a reserve
static line, except: [FB]
(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall
self-supervision may jump without a reserve
static line upon endorsement from his or her
supervising instructor.
(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a
series of jumps.
c. a visually accessible altimeter [NW]

NW = non waiverable.

The SIM makes no distinction between harness hold and static line students.

By the same token it makes no distinction there about tandem students and altimeters either.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dclabounty 0]

Quote

Quote

Would you ever through a student out without a altimiter. Most would scream no - very lowed I think - this is a next step topic - so treat it like a test -

USPA SIM Section 2, K-2

2. All students are to be equipped with the following
equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:
a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]
b. a piggyback harness and container system that
includes a single-point riser release and a reserve
static line, except: [FB]
(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall
self-supervision may jump without a reserve
static line upon endorsement from his or her
supervising instructor.
(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a
series of jumps.
c. a visually accessible altimeter [NW]

NW = non waiverable.

The SIM makes no distinction between harness hold and static line students.

By the same token it makes no distinction there about tandem students and altimeters either.

The list of changes to the 2012 SIM on USPA's website includes exempting tandem students from the requirement. It now reads as below.

2. All students are to be equipped with the following equipment until they have obtained a USPA A
license:
a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]
b. a piggyback harness and container system that includes a single-point riser release and a reserve static
line, except: [FB]
(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall self-supervision may jump without a reserve static
line upon endorsement from his or her supervising instructor.
(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a series of jumps.
c. a visually accessible altimeter (except tandem students) [NW]

[pchapman 261]

Interesting to see the US has gone this route, to get students altimeter oriented from the start. Canada still uses the traditional way of not needing it for under 15 second delays.

While there is some added safety in having an alti, one traditional reason to not have one was that it was a piece of small, expensive equipment that one didn't want the shmucks going through the FJC to lose or drop on concrete. Once the masses were thinned out, with some becoming more serious students, then give them one.

I wonder if IAD / S/L FJC teaching has changed at all with the new rule - traditionally no altitudes were mentioned. Now it becomes a little more complex, but one can be more specific about when not to cutaway, to avoid those dangerous low cutaways.

[Hellis 0]

I find it odd that you don't need a altimeter for the sub 15 sec jumps.
During groundtraning (at least here) we tell students to never lose altitude awareness.
And how the heck are they supposed to know their altitude without a altimeter?

Sure they are supposed to count, but thats the freefall part.
What about canopyride? Are they not supposed to be altitude aware during the canopy ride?
In case they get linetwists and a snively opening, how are they supposed to know "how serious it is"?
And we all know Mantas and Navigators in the 240-300 sqf at Well... thats what the students say after chopping. I trust them

I usually tell students to always be altitude aware from when they get seated in the plane till they land their parachute.
I had a refreshing course with students and sub 100 jumps after winter break.
And I asked them what was good to know while beeing in the airplane.
Got a few answers, but none said altitude.
Told them if you don't know what altitude you are at how are you supposed to know how to react in case of emergency?

We started talking about the freefall, and again they completly forgot about altitude.

Asked them what to do after opening canopy.
Again they forgot altitudecheck.

Little later we talked about landingpattern, and they all screamed out. ALTITUDE!
Finally!
Then I asked what you should do after landning.
"Well, we are on the ground now!! The altitude is ZERO!!" was the reply

[billvon 2,380]

>Told them if you don't know what altitude you are at how are you supposed to
>know how to react in case of emergency?

I very much hope that students are not taught that they need an altimeter to react correctly in case of emergency! 99.9% of the time it's very simple:

1) No canopy after 5 seconds? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
2) Malfunction? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
3) Does not pass control check? Cut away and deploy your reserve.

Nothing in there about altitude. It is VERY rare that a student would need an altimeter to make a decision during an emergency.

>Asked them what to do after opening canopy. Again they forgot altitudecheck.

Why do you need to check your altitude after you open? It doesn't matter at that point.

[jclalor 12]

Quote

Quote

Interesting to see the US has gone this route, to get students altimeter oriented from the start. Canada still uses the traditional way of not needing it for under 15 second delays.

While there is some added safety in having an alti, one traditional reason to not have one was that it was a piece of small, expensive equipment that one didn't want the shmucks going through the FJC to lose or drop on concrete. Once the masses were thinned out, with some becoming more serious students, then give them one.

I wonder if IAD / S/L FJC teaching has changed at all with the new rule - traditionally no altitudes were mentioned. Now it becomes a little more complex, but one can be more specific about when not to cutaway, to avoid those dangerous low cutaways.

Reading this thread I was thinking if I remembered right about not getting an altimeter back in 1982 until my first 15 second delay. I guess I was.

[Hellis 0]

Quote

>Told them if you don't know what altitude you are at how are you supposed to
>know how to react in case of emergency?

I very much hope that students are not taught that they need an altimeter to react correctly in case of emergency! 99.9% of the time it's very simple:

1) No canopy after 5 seconds? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
2) Malfunction? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
3) Does not pass control check? Cut away and deploy your reserve.

Nothing in there about altitude. It is VERY rare that a student would need an altimeter to make a decision during an emergency.

Read again!!!
Two sentences earlier, what is the subject?

[popsjumper 2]

Thanks for the knock on the head. I need to get the newer SIM.
Consider myself bitch-slapped.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

>Told them if you don't know what altitude you are at how are you supposed to
>know how to react in case of emergency?

I very much hope that students are not taught that they need an altimeter to react correctly in case of emergency! 99.9% of the time it's very simple:

1) No canopy after 5 seconds? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
2) Malfunction? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
3) Does not pass control check? Cut away and deploy your reserve.

Nothing in there about altitude. It is VERY rare that a student would need an altimeter to make a decision during an emergency.

>Asked them what to do after opening canopy. Again they forgot altitudecheck.

Why do you need to check your altitude after you open? It doesn't matter at that point.

I cannot believe you said any of that. Oh, it's a test, right?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[BobMoore 0]

Quote

Quote

>Told them if you don't know what altitude you are at how are you supposed to
>know how to react in case of emergency?

I very much hope that students are not taught that they need an altimeter to react correctly in case of emergency! 99.9% of the time it's very simple:

1) No canopy after 5 seconds? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
2) Malfunction? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
3) Does not pass control check? Cut away and deploy your reserve.

Nothing in there about altitude. It is VERY rare that a student would need an altimeter to make a decision during an emergency.

>Asked them what to do after opening canopy. Again they forgot altitudecheck.

Why do you need to check your altitude after you open? It doesn't matter at that point.

I cannot believe you said any of that. Oh, it's a test, right?

Okay, Mr. popsjumper. Educate us. What is wrong with what billvon said? I agree completely with him on this.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[fencebuster 7]

Every student should have an altimeter, tandem, AFF, SL, or whatever. Altitude awareness is the single most important competence in skydiving. Not everyone needs to look at an altimeter to judge altitude, but if you don't have one, you have no way to confirm where you are. $160 bucks is not that costly that a student should not have an altimeter, IMO.

I am starting a DZ and I have purchased 6 student altimeters and I am flying 1 C-182. My $.02.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[popsjumper 2]

Well, Mr Moore,
It's not my place to educate you. You've enough experience and time in sport to be able to educate yourself.

I don't agree with the K.I.S.S. principle as apparently you, and Bill, do.
Do some teach that way? Yes.
Do some teach more relevant procedures? Yes.

FWIW, I do agree with his #3. We all teach that, I'm sure.

I have a strong level of faith in the SIM and respect for the old-timers who paid the price for the safety-related information in that book. Simple as that.
Is the book perfect? No.
Is the book God's all gospel? No
Is a very good guidebook on best practices? Yes.

USPA does not teach the K.I.S.S. principle.
Neither do I.
Thanks for asking, though.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Every student should have an altimeter, tandem, AFF, SL, or whatever. Altitude awareness is the single most important competence in skydiving. Not everyone needs to look at an altimeter to judge altitude, but if you don't have one, you have no way to confirm where you are. $160 bucks is not that costly that a student should not have an altimeter, IMO.

I am starting a DZ and I have purchased 6 student altimeters and I am flying 1 C-182. My $.02.

You got my vote for sure. Good stuff and FWIW, my hat's off to you, sir.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fencebuster 7]

Thanks, man. I am trying to do it right; doing it right is definitely more expensive, but doing it right makes it more likely to be safe. I had some good teachers and I hope I can make them proud. Come visit us if you are in the area after the new year.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Quote

Quote

>Told them if you don't know what altitude you are at how are you supposed to
>know how to react in case of emergency?

I very much hope that students are not taught that they need an altimeter to react correctly in case of emergency! 99.9% of the time it's very simple:

1) No canopy after 5 seconds? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
2) Malfunction? Cut away and deploy your reserve.
3) Does not pass control check? Cut away and deploy your reserve.

Nothing in there about altitude. It is VERY rare that a student would need an altimeter to make a decision during an emergency.

>Asked them what to do after opening canopy. Again they forgot altitudecheck.

Why do you need to check your altitude after you open? It doesn't matter at that point.

I cannot believe you said any of that. Oh, it's a test, right?

Okay, Mr. popsjumper. Educate us. What is wrong with what billvon said? I agree completely with him on this.

Once upon a time, in the pre-ACF* days, students were taught about something called a "hard deck" (or something similar), which was a certain altitude. At this altitude they were to have solved any inconvenienceceseses they'd encountered, such as a hung up slider, line twists and/or end cell closure. In order to determine whether they'd reached this "hard deck" students were given an altimeter. Of course, this was when students were expected to fly their canopies themselves instead of waiting for their instructors to scream

Quote

CUTAWAY CUTAWAY OMFG CUTAWAY

through the radio.




* for the old farts out there, ACF = Accelerated Canopy Flight; a teaching method in which the student learns to fly their canopy predictably and reliably by way of remote control by two or, at later levels, one instructor.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Hellis 0]

And thats the way I think students should be tought.
I don't like talking students down on radio. And only giving students the "bare minimum" because the radio will sort out the rest, is.. I don't even have words for it.

It's nice to know the students have radio, so that you can talk them out of something stupid.
But to use the radio as "substitute" to altimeter and training is not ok in my opinion.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

It's nice to know the students have radio, so that you can talk them out of something stupid.
But to use the radio as "substitute" to altimeter and training is not ok in my opinion.

That's one of the reasons I don't even mention "radio" in my FJC. I did at first way back when but I stopped when one early student commented, "Why do I need to learn this when you can just tell me what to do on the radio."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[riggerrob 558]

Altimeters tend to lag during short freefalls, so they are not accurate enough to tell you when to pull.

[Hellis 0]

Yes, but we are talking about a complete jump?
From boarding the airplane til landing canopy?

To only focus on the freefall part and say they don't need a altimeter because it's only static line or short freefall is not correct in my opinion.
The altimeter is usable during the whole time

[dclabounty 0]

Quote

Thanks for the knock on the head. I need to get the newer SIM.
Consider myself bitch-slapped.

Sorry if it came off that way. I'm not able to get near a DZ until May so I'm passing the time reading everything I can (wishing I was jumping) and happened to be reading the new SIM when I was going through this thread.

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Altimeters tend to lag during short freefalls, so they are not accurate enough to tell you when to pull.

I have never experienced that on any of my SSE or Alti-2 Altimeters, is this a problem with others?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

Quote

Altimeters tend to lag during short freefalls, so they are not accurate enough to tell you when to pull.

I have never experienced that on any of my SSE or Alti-2 Altimeters, is this a problem with others?

Matt

I was one of the first, anywhere, to equip my students with ramair mains, and very shortly afterwards with ramair reserves. This was about 1987 or so, and after the first load I put out with them I had to rethink my canopy training completely, because the old "follow the arrow" method previously used when students jumped roundies, just wasn't good enough. At that time radios were so unreliable and bulky they were not really in the picture.

I gave them altis, and trained them to fly the canopy from 1000 feet down to a pre set 500 foot point where they were to do their final turn into wind for landing.

The alti was vital. and the system worked very well.

We soon sorted out some reasonable radios, but only put them on the student on kitting up. They were always trained to fly by themselves, and the radio was only used to comunicate if they were heading off into the boonies.

Many students were able to fly land land the canopy safely from their first jump.

Knowing when they were at 1000 feet, and 500 feet was vital.

I'm not a big fan of the simple "listen to the radio" brigade, and I think that is partly a reason we see pooly trained canopy pilots and the problems that go with it today.

My students were in training to spot from their fourth or 5th jump, and were required to spot for themselves (without input from the JM) once they'd completed a few freefalls.

They learned to use their altimeters, and relate them to "sight pictures", to help train the MK 1 eyeball to assess altitudes...

I think there is still a place for that type of training, and the alti is the most important part of that.

I cannot believe in this day and age students stilll get put out without them....and BTW, I never had a student smash one, and that was over tens of thousands of student jumps with them....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[freeatlast 0]

There is another aspect to yelling at students through the radio...

I was initially taught how to fly a pattern, but was given a radio and told to 'obey instructions'...

On one of my early jumps the guy talking people down on the radio (there were three of us in the air at the time) had a problem with the guy in front of me...

I was happily flying my canopy to the required holding point, when the radio guy panicked - he was concentrating so hard on jumper #2 (I was #3) that he kept screaming at me to leave my toggles alone and left me flying on full drive in a random direction - every time i tried to correct my course I was 'instructed' to leave my controls as they were...

Eventually #2 landed and the radio guy (I hate to call him an instructor) turned his attention to me and successfully got me to crash land on one of the main runways (a long way away from the student landing area!!)...

The result - total confusion for me, 1 dangerous landing, 1 messed up knee (I ended up seeing a surgeon later because of it), 1 radio guy who then tried to blame me for trying to stay in the holding area!!

As a result of this incident I stopped training at that DZ went to another and did my AFF without further incident.

IMHO - the radio did little for my safety that day...

(I understand that in certain circumstances that radios are useful, but i wonder how often they contribute to incidents)...

And before anyone else jumps on and says it - I am aware at that time i was an inexperienced jumper (student) and that this is just my interpretation of the situation and that there are two sides to every story...

However without the radio, I would have flown my pattern and landed in the student area whereas with the radio and 'instruction' I ended up having a nasty landing and almost ending my skydiving career there and then...

A radio is only as good as the person using it!!

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

A radio is only as good as the person using it!!

My students were taught to ignore the radio if they figured the instructions they were getting were incorrect. A student landing off the DZ is usually landing out of sight, and the operator can not know where the canopy is taking him.

The key for the students was simple, at 1ßßß feet start looking where you are and select a good landing area, at 500 feet face into wind and steer for open space. a safe landing was the priority, exactly where that was didn't really matter.

We often had 4 canopies in the air at once, and the radio man could get very busy, it was not a job for the inexperienced. added to that, a lot of my students did not speak English as a first language. Therefore we had to keep the radio instructions simple and very short. The radio man needs to use the fewest words possible, and needs to speak in a clear and calm voice.

Nothing worse than a radio person having an attack of verbal diarrhea, and yes I have seen many radio operators tell a whole life story.

The radio should only be used if necessary, the student must use his training to get safely onto the ground. Radios were so unreliable enough back then, that we had to assume they didn't work.

The old adage, "once out the door you are on your own", was one of the themes of my training.

We had very few incidents, which proved that the training was OK.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....