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Digital Altimeters and Audibles for students

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First you said your federation advocates NOT using radios because (your words) "students would just have to land without one if it failed". In this post you say radios aren't part of the handbook. So were you lying when you said your federation has a position on the issue or were you lying when in this post you say they don't?

BTW, I'm not talking sh*t about you. I'm just calling you out....mate.



Actually chucky you haven't called anything although if you believe that well I guess it might be good for ya ego so go ahead... I've answered all that chucky boy if you don't get it then well I guess your just an idiot, sorry dude but I don't respect dickheads:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:



Well now that's professional.

Hey Mods, ya wanna take of this personal attack?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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First you said your federation advocates NOT using radios because (your words) "students would just have to land without one if it failed". In this post you say radios aren't part of the handbook. So were you lying when you said your federation has a position on the issue or were you lying when in this post you say they don't?


BTW, I'm not talking sh*t about you. I'm just calling you out....mate.



Actually chucky you haven't called anything although if you believe that well I guess it might be good for ya ego so go ahead... I've answered all that chucky boy if you don't get it then well I guess your just an idiot, sorry dude but I don't respect dickheads:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:



Well now that's professional.

Hey Mods, ya wanna take of this personal attack?



And calling me a liar isn't a personal attack:ph34r::ph34r: Really chuck, if a organisation has no mention of student radios in it's training manual how can it advocate there use?? your really not the sharpest tool in the shed are you? I mean we all get it you can't train a student to fly a canopy without your radio, but we canB|B| and why did I know you were going to cry to ya mommy:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

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First you said your federation advocates NOT using radios because (your words) "students would just have to land without one if it failed". In this post you say radios aren't part of the handbook. So were you lying when you said your federation has a position on the issue or were you lying when in this post you say they don't?


BTW, I'm not talking sh*t about you. I'm just calling you out....mate.



Actually chucky you haven't called anything although if you believe that well I guess it might be good for ya ego so go ahead... I've answered all that chucky boy if you don't get it then well I guess your just an idiot, sorry dude but I don't respect dickheads:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:



Well now that's professional.

Hey Mods, ya wanna take of this personal attack?



And calling me a liar isn't a personal attack

Nope. Calling you a liar is an accusation on your behavior, not an attack on your person.

Really chuck, if a organisation has no mention of student radios in it's training manual how can it advocate there use?? your really not the sharpest tool in the shed are you?

Changing the language won't change the facts any more than your previous efforts to steer the conversation away from those facts did. You initially said your federation advocates NOT using radios, then later balked and said they simply don't address the issue.

I'm a sharp enough tool to comprehend the difference.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Nope. Calling you a liar is an accusation on your behavior, not an attack on your person.

I've explained why but your not sharp enough to understand, I can only be a liar if I'm not telling the truth, since I am telling he truth and you have no proof I'm lying then it's a personal attack.

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Changing the language won't change the facts any more than your previous efforts to steer the conversation away from those facts did. You initially said your federation advocates NOT using radios, then later balked and said they simply don't address the issue.

Your right it doesn't change the facts, The use of radios is not in there, but the change of language means you wont be able to read it. And they do address the issue with a comprehensive canopy flight lessons that allow us to operate without them. I've also said that before so I refer back to my last statement last post.;)

I'm not balking on anything, the Federation here doesn't use radios, student training by the book, there book does not include the use of radios for TA. It's simply just not in the book. How can a federation advocate the use of radios if there use is not mentioned in the training manual?? I've also said that before so I refer back to my last statement last post.;)

As far as steering the conversation. The tread I posted was about the use of digital altimeters and audibles, the only thing I have steered towards is the origional topic, while you try to hijack it and steer it away


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I'm a sharp enough tool to comprehend the difference.

I think you have proven to me chuck your not very sharp at all.;)

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You are so caught up in your hissy fit with Chuck that you can't see the forest from the trees.

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The threshold being 85dBs, how loud do you think that twenty minute plane ride up to altitude is? How many times a day do you take that ride? Sit near the engines on an Otter, & the level goes a lot higher than 130dBs. All of which is considerably louder than a leaf blower or lawn mower. Both of which require hearing protection.



Great, nobody ever suggested that you don't wear hearing protection in the plane. It's a far longer and higher dB exposure than a 50 second freefall. I wear earplugs on every plane ride, and they've become part of my gear check before I walk to the plane. Rig, helmet, goggles, altimeter, earplugs, and I'm good to go.

Unhitch your horse from this wagon, you made a mistake. If you catch your mistake and conceed early on, you're just the 'new guy' and it's no big deal. If ride it into the ground and keep kicking, you turn into shithead.

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PiLFy,

This can't be the first time you have heard this and this is probably a waste of time, but here goes.

Did you ever think that you are the problem when you get in arguments on here? People like Pops, Chuck, Dave etc. have been in this sport for a SHITLOAD more time than most people. They have been through and seen the changes, heard about the "new" ways of doing things and are probably the smartest skydiving resources we have. Yet you continuously disagree with them, and in not such a nice way I might add. You come across like a condescending, cocky, entitled, arrogant person that quite frankly doesn’t (and can't given experience) know what the hell they (you) are talking about. Seriously, stop and think about what you are saying and doing. It is literally like you walking up to Tiger Woods, ripping the driver out of his hands and saying "let me show you how it’s done."

People who act like that have NO place in this sport AT ALL! In fact, people like this are not a pleasure to be around in life at all.....PERIOD.

I'm sure this is falling on deaf ears, to be honest I hope someone who has similar personality traits reads this and maybe it gets through to them, because this CAN't be the first time you have heard this in life.

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OK. So you don't want to publicize the contents of your "book".
I would think, in the interest of skydiving safety, that one would want to put it out there for all to read and learn from if was as beneficial as you claim. But that's just me.

I'm beginning to think that your "book" doesn't really exist.

Language translators abound.

As an aside, you could do more for your point of view by remaining cool, calm and collected...as you started out. Resorting to name calling is not productive. Saying, "You started it" is not productive. Getting defensive is not productive. Addressing people's personality is not productive. Saying, "Well, he did it, too" is not productive.

Really. I don't believe that any of the "old timers" are against true innovation. Personally, I'm all ears looking for better ways to train students. Nearly every DZ I go to I try to sit on on a training class hoping to pick up pointers from other instructors that would make my own work better or more efficient.

The problem is that there are so very few true innovators out here. Most of what we see is relative newcomers trying to re-invent the wheel...coming up with ideas that have already been thought of, tried and rejected for various reasons. And then we get many that are so far out of whack that it makes one wonder "just what is he thinking?"

So far your claims are just that...claims. There are very few out here that will take up your claim as gospel just on your word alone. Hell, there are few out here that would take up a similar claim from some highly experienced skydivers.
Just because Joe Skygod says it doesn't make it true...even the skygods come up with wild-ass stuff.

So, if you're getting upset because you're not getting the agreement and approval you were hoping for, that's a major reason why. And no, not everyone will sweet-talk you. It's a fact of life and best accepted on those terms for what it is.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Interesting how many threads this is right now being discussed in, and has actively manifested itself.

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Most of what we see is relative newcomers trying to re-invent the wheel...coming up with ideas that have already been thought of, tried and rejected for various reasons.



More Audibles for Students Reference Material

I'm not "taking sides" on either side - Just trying to objectively show/provide further "history", details and information - so we all can consider (and hopefully be open-minded ...and THINK) as well. I am willing to consider new techniques, programs and options as well. - Then, further discuss them, and yes even debate them (presuming I come to an absolute position - which I haven't, yet) if/where/when appropriate. So long as the debate and conversation remains (mutually) respectful. The moment it is not - then there really is no further point.

We can all have differences of OPINION, without losing at least respect for one another, and CONSIDERATION of the others position(s), can't we? Isn't that also, the very point of at least this (particular - Instructors) forum too, in the 1st place?

Bart - You may not like it, but credibility (at least amongst and within (all - not just here) public "anonymous" internet forums is earned. It is not automatic. "You post it, so it must be gospel" just does not apply to any of us. You at least started down that road, and I thought might becoming one to earn that, with this thread - initially.

Don't let the "trap" of anonymous internet posting "keyboard bravado" get the best of you. You want credibility? Step back, take a breath - reconsider, and be considerATE of others opinions and positions too. If you state something you claim to have factual 1st-hand knowledge of, be prepared to back that up - and there is no need to get offended either, when that is asked for. And that's all I've seen in here so far, that HAS been asked for is all. Which I think is reasonable.

I am willing to still listen and consider - IF you take a few steps back, and truly are in fact, "legitimate" yourself, and WILLING to take the steps (necessary) to validate that, and your statements/opinions.

Not unreasonable requests.
Can you bring it? Or... Can you not?
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Thank You, Andy. That's very nice of you, but I don't need your sympathy. A laughingstock, huh? Then, tell me why I've received several supportive PMs over this very thread. I am far from the only one who disagrees w/you. Most others just don't want to be bothered w/the pissing contests that tend to ensue on here.

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Girl! Don't you get it? You've made yourself a laughingstock many times over here in this thread and several others too.

I feel sorry for you.





Kinda like watching a newly licensed private pilot telling Chuck Yeager how to fly an airplane. :D:D:D



Still sore about the other thread, eh? I never tried to tell Chuck, or anyone else, that I knew better than them. I merely asked some questions. Questions that still haven't been answered, BTW.

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Thank You, Andy. That's very nice of you, but I don't need your sympathy. A laughingstock, huh? Then, tell me why I've received several supportive PMs over this very thread. I am far from the only one who disagrees w/you. Most others just don't want to be bothered w/the pissing contests that tend to ensue on here.



Man, this guy just doesn't stop. Please someone find out who PiLFy is and call his DZO. He's gonna need protection.

Look, there's nothing new here, folks. Even before the internet and public forums, guys like PiLFy were around. You know the guy...

He's the guy hangs around the DZ a lot but makes very few jumps (like say, 60 in 2 years), preferring instead to spend most of his time on the ground pointing out everything everyone is doing wrong - according to him - to everyone within earshot.

He's the guy that instructors warn their students not to listen to and he knows that, but he continues to tell students what's best for them anyway.

He's the guy who takes out the formation and then claims someone flew under him...even though everyone else was in the formation waiting on him.

He's the guy who shows up at the invite-only parties at the coolest skydiver's homes sans invite, guzzles as much free beer and shovels down as much free food as he can, all while sharing his skydiving wisdom with unsuspecting whuffo ladies who listen quietly with strained looks on their faces, and whom and would gladly walk to the punch bowl and slam their faces in it if it would get them out of spending another agonizing moment in his uber-annoying presence.

I only know PiLFy from his posts here, but from what I can tell so far he's that guy.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Hi Dave,
Look, I already have hearing damage. It's not fun. Statements were made by an experienced jumper that doing this sport w/o hearing protection will do no harm. That opinion was backed up by a couple of other experienced jumpers. As a Newbie, I know how low-timers read through these forums for advice. I don't want some of them to damage their ears from bad advice. So, I made a PSA. I'm a bad guy because I happen to know more about that? If I see that people could get hurt? I speak up. I didn't once, & still regret it.

What mistake did I make, Dave? I asked questions as a learner. To me, that's what A & B licenses are. They're Learner's Permits. Time & time again on these boards, I've characterized myself as a Newbie. I've never tried to tell anybody, much less those w/decades in the sport, that I know more about skydiving than they do. Were that true. Chuck would be 100% right. It would be comical. What, I didn't grovel enough as I asked questions? I substantiated my arguments a little too well w/facts? Is the vocabulary threatening? If you look back through this thread. You'll see I received some good advice. I plan to take it. I see why a lot of new people get tired of some of the 'tudes, here. If you don't ask a question w/the right phrasing. You get pounced on. Rub somebody the wrong way, & they'll hold it against you later when asking an important question. The problem w/that, is we all share the same sky. I'm new. I ask questions. Give me enough crap? I'll stop asking about things. I might screw up one day, though. I might not just get myself hurt, but crash into someone else, as well. That's not cool. The last time I checked. We're all supposed to be on the same side.

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What is it w/you, Chuck?

He's the guy hangs around the DZ a lot but makes very few jumps (like say, 60 in 2 years), preferring instead to spend most of his time on the ground pointing out everything everyone is doing wrong - according to him - to everyone within earshot.

Wrong on every count, except the 60 jumps in two years. I got hurt last year, & couldn't finish the license. I work a lot of hours, & jump whenever I can. It's not nearly as often as I'd like. When I am there. I jump far more than I talk. I never badmouth other peoples' flying.

He's the guy that instructors warn their students not to listen to and he knows that, but he continues to tell students what's best for them anyway.

You're wrong here, too. I'll occasionally mention what my experiences have been so far. I ALWAYS follow that up by telling them to ask their instructors.

He's the guy who takes out the formation and then claims someone flew under him...even though everyone else was in the formation waiting on him.

You're wrong again, Chuck. When I screw up. I own it, & ask how not to. Most of my jumps are two-ways, w/an occasional three-way. I try not to impose on others' group dives. I know I'm not very good. I did funnel a three-way, once. I was afraid they'd be mad @me. They were laughing their heads off when I found them :)
He's the guy who shows up at the invite-only parties at the coolest skydiver's homes sans invite, guzzles as much free beer and shovels down as much free food as he can, all while sharing his skydiving wisdom with unsuspecting whuffo ladies who listen quietly with strained looks on their faces, and whom and would gladly walk to the punch bowl and slam their faces in it if it would get them out of spending another agonizing moment in his uber-annoying presence.

You're wrong here too, man. I'm no free-loader. I never try to pass myself off for more than I am in this sport.

I only know PiLFy from his posts here, but from what I can tell so far he's that guy.

You were wrong on every count, Chuck. You know a lot about skydiving. By your own admissions here. You don't know anything about me. Can you not agree w/someone w/o fighting w/them?

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What is it w/you, Chuck?

He's the guy hangs around the DZ a lot but makes very few jumps (like say, 60 in 2 years), preferring instead to spend most of his time on the ground pointing out everything everyone is doing wrong - according to him - to everyone within earshot.

Wrong on every count, except the 60 jumps in two years. I got hurt last year, & couldn't finish the license. I work a lot of hours, & jump whenever I can. It's not nearly as often as I'd like. When I am there. I jump far more than I talk. I never badmouth other peoples' flying.

He's the guy that instructors warn their students not to listen to and he knows that, but he continues to tell students what's best for them anyway.

You're wrong here, too. I'll occasionally mention what my experiences have been so far. I ALWAYS follow that up by telling them to ask their instructors.

He's the guy who takes out the formation and then claims someone flew under him...even though everyone else was in the formation waiting on him.

You're wrong again, Chuck. When I screw up. I own it, & ask how not to. Most of my jumps are two-ways, w/an occasional three-way. I try not to impose on others' group dives. I know I'm not very good. I did funnel a three-way, once. I was afraid they'd be mad @me. They were laughing their heads off when I found them :)
He's the guy who shows up at the invite-only parties at the coolest skydiver's homes sans invite, guzzles as much free beer and shovels down as much free food as he can, all while sharing his skydiving wisdom with unsuspecting whuffo ladies who listen quietly with strained looks on their faces, and whom and would gladly walk to the punch bowl and slam their faces in it if it would get them out of spending another agonizing moment in his uber-annoying presence.

You're wrong here too, man. I'm no free-loader. I never try to pass myself off for more than I am in this sport.

I only know PiLFy from his posts here, but from what I can tell so far he's that guy.

You were wrong on every count, Chuck. You know a lot about skydiving. By your own admissions here. You don't know anything about me. Can you not agree w/someone w/o fighting w/them?



Oh yeah, I forgot one...

He's the guy who oversells his denials of being that guy, refuting each mention of him being that guy as if the examples of his that guy-ism were literal accusations of that guy-like behavior on his part.

But I gotta admit, Johnny Utah does a fine job of painting himself as a humble sort.

Hmmmm - what's gotten into him?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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I'm sorry. Who are you? You talk like you've been around for years, but have a brand new account w/no info filled in. I smell bacon.



Wheeeeeeeeeeeeew Hoooooooooooo!!! That's a riot!

A guy (or girl) we know only as "Kenny" is calling out an anonymous poster!!
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Thank You, Andy. That's very nice of you, but I don't need your sympathy.


OK. I was trying to be nice. What you DO you need? Believability? Credibility? Good luck with that, my man.

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A laughingstock, huh? Then, tell me why I've received several supportive PMs over this very thread.


:D:D:D
You've used that "PM" gambit now in how many threads? Every time you get called out for having your pants down you call out the "PM" gambit.

Another youngster trick that's been around, and seen through, for ages. Congrats on discovering it!

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I am far from the only one who disagrees w/you. Most others just don't want to be bothered w/the pissing contests that tend to ensue on here.


:D:D:D
Another youngster trick discovered? Yes, you've used that one in other threads, too. "It's not just me but other people too!" The funny part is you apparently think nobody has seen that stupid trick either. The other funny part is that it seems that you think what others believe justifies YOUR beliefs. You seem to think that regurgitation of something you heard through the grapevine qualifies you as "knowledgeable".

No, the thread is not about agreement although you seem to get upset when people don't agree with you. It's about discussion of pros and cons. You have no dog in this hunt because you have no clue as to the pros and cons of wearing/using audible altimeters anywhere - body helmet or otherwise - except what you heard from your local source. Your opinion doesn't account for much on this topic. You're not going to get agreement on anything you say here. Nobody is going to say, "Pilfy is on to something". They can't say that because Pilfy is only onto something he heard.


To others:
I guess the audible discussion might be dead now.
I apologize for taking the piss out of "kenny".
Well, maybe not.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Hi Dave,
Look, I already have hearing damage. It's not fun. Statements were made by an experienced jumper that doing this sport w/o hearing protection will do no harm. That opinion was backed up by a couple of other experienced jumpers. As a Newbie, I know how low-timers read through these forums for advice. I don't want some of them to damage their ears from bad advice. So, I made a PSA. I'm a bad guy because I happen to know more about that? If I see that people could get hurt? I speak up. I didn't once, & still regret it.

What mistake did I make, Dave? I asked questions as a learner. To me, that's what A & B licenses are. They're Learner's Permits. Time & time again on these boards, I've characterized myself as a Newbie. I've never tried to tell anybody, much less those w/decades in the sport, that I know more about skydiving than they do. Were that true. Chuck would be 100% right. It would be comical. What, I didn't grovel enough as I asked questions? I substantiated my arguments a little too well w/facts? Is the vocabulary threatening? If you look back through this thread. You'll see I received some good advice. I plan to take it. I see why a lot of new people get tired of some of the 'tudes, here. If you don't ask a question w/the right phrasing. You get pounced on. Rub somebody the wrong way, & they'll hold it against you later when asking an important question. The problem w/that, is we all share the same sky. I'm new. I ask questions. Give me enough crap? I'll stop asking about things. I might screw up one day, though. I might not just get myself hurt, but crash into someone else, as well. That's not cool. The last time I checked. We're all supposed to be on the same side.



Kenny,

If you want to be treated with respect don't get into mud-slinging and childish name calling. The issue of hearing damage is separate to that of audibles. If you have expertise in the field start a thread on it and I am sure interesting debate will occur. Of course it may be that some people prefer the risk to their hearing compared to the potentially greater risks that could have been avoided if they had heard something.

I would tread with extreme caution when challenging seasoned jumpers views. I can't speak for all of them, but I know popsjumper and I know that he is receptive to new idea's, AFTER they have been thought through and properly challenged. So many idea's appear to be good at face value, but when all the risks and benefits are evaluated they are found wanting.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I'm sorry. Who are you? You talk like you've been around for years, but have a brand new account w/no info filled in. I smell bacon.



I am clearly not someone like you, thank god. A post whore who has over 10 times as many posts as jumps.

Seriously, get a clue and stop being so oblivious to the fact that YOU are the common denominator in so many disagreements. All be it with people that have 10-15 times more time in the sport, and 100's of times more jumps.

I think you are just a troll to be honest.

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I think a lot of new jumpers go through that difficult phase where they feel confident to deal with most routine things. This leads to a false sense of security about non-routine things. This complacency is very dangerous.

Only with time in the sport does one truly come to appreciate that we can never know all there is to know and that skydiving can find some inventive ways to fuck you up.

Old timers may not know everything but they sure as hell have had time to consider a lot more "what ifs" than someone with 2 years in the sport.

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Andy,
I just finished reading through two more of those supportive PMs you say I'm imagining. One of them slammed the both of you for your abusive ways. We had a good laugh about it.;)

Seeing as how I've never discussed my Audible w/anyone @my current DZ. I'm not sure where this regurgitation you keep mentioning, is coming from. The ideas I put forth in questions are mine. Rather than merely trying to discount them as not being my own? You could have answered them. I think I asked a couple of good ones in this thread. Discrediting the source is one of those kiddy trix you like to cite. Others can disagree w/me. That's fine. A few up-jumpers who sent me some of those imaginary PMs don't agree w/my Audible ideas, either. I respect their opinions. I also give them far more weight than yours, & am rethinking the issues. Why? Because they don't have the arrested development, we_get_to_abuse_the_new_guys mentality you two have displayed. The venom you two have spewed my way goes well beyond mere hazing. There was malice in it. I'm sure I want nothing more to do w/either one of you. Happily, almost everyone where I jump is very friendly & helpful. Plus, there are a few people here @DZ.com I can go to for answers.

OK, you can chime up again in rebuttal. I'm done w/this. Carry on...

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Mean Mr. Mustard, Beatles, Abbey Road

Mean Mister Mustard sleeps in the park
Shaves in the dark trying to save paper
Sleeps in a hole in the road
Saving up to buy some clothes
Keeps a ten MARK LOAD up his nose
Such a mean old man
Such a mean old man
:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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