rehmwa 2 #51 July 21, 2011 Quote My apologies if I came across as having poked you. well, crap, now how will I maintain my outrage?? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #52 July 21, 2011 Quote Quote My apologies if I came across as having poked you. well, crap, now how will I maintain my outrage?? Think of it as a religious statement. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 89 #53 July 21, 2011 QuoteIn that case there would be no other viable option than simply pulling the reserve and hoping for the best. How about letting the student handle it themselves (as they were trained to do)? What if you (experienced jumper) were the "student" in this situation (say, because it was an AFF-I training jump and you were the dummy), and prior to the jump they told you that if you had a bag lock, the plan was to just pull your reserve handle and let you deal with the outcome? You almost certainly would say (probably with some alarm), "please don't, I'll handle it myself, thank you". But of course, this was not an experienced jumper, it was an AFF level 1. It seems to me the calculus for doing it to a student (of unknown ability and mental wherewithal) is that, on average, the risk of something bad happening by letting them do it themselves is greater than the added risk of bypassing the cutaway step. I have no experience to do this calculation (on either side of the equation), but would be interested in what those of you with experience think of the ability of students on their first jump. (E.g., what percent do you fear might freeze up, or worse.) BTW, I have quite an appreciation for what AFF-Is have to deal with: there are a gajillion ways for a jump to go bad (but when they do, they regularly show up on YouTube, LOL!), and there is no way to anticipate even a small fraction of these unusual ones. The instructor chose one reasonable course to deal with an emergency, and unlike us, did not have the luxury of hours to replay it over and over (in slow motion and freeze framing) before having to act. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #54 July 21, 2011 QuoteIn that case there would be no other viable option than simply pulling the reserve and hoping for the best. QuoteHow about letting the student handle it themselves (as they were trained to do)? Geez, Peter. You asked that in post 15 and got your answer. Why do you feel the need to ask again? Am I to think that the answer you got wasn't what you wanted to hear? Your answer is NO. One more time...NO.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #55 July 21, 2011 QuoteHow about letting the student handle it themselves (as they were trained to do)? Students make mistakes, and that's why they jump with instructors. Again, look at all the possibilites of what the student might do. Of all the things that could happen, only one is better than what actually happened, that being the student pulls both handles, the main/bag leaves, and the reserve opens clean. That's the 'best case scenario', but the truth is that there are a host of other things that might happen. They range from pulling both handles with the main/bag not leaving due to low drag with the reserve firing into the reserve (like what actualy happened) to the student doing nothing, and the Cypres (hopefully) firing the reserve into the main/bag at 750ft, and everything in between. Take every option worse than firing the reserve into the main/bag, and you can wipe them off the table in 1 second by pulling the reserve handle. Add in being under 4k and quickly running out of time, you can see where this is your best option. Ask yourself this, when was the last time you broke off from a skydive under 4k? Essentially, this is the position the instructor was in, because he was docked in a two-way under 4k. Now add to the break off 'sorting out a bag lock for the other jumper', and you can see where time becomes a significant factor. Nobody is suggesting that there was anything good about this situation. The suggestion is that the guy follwed an acceptable course of action given the circumstances. There are always ten different ways to handle anything, and 2 or 3 of them would be considered acceptable, and this was one of them. Just dropping your grip and tracking away with the bag lock dancing around above the students back is not an 'acceptable' option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #56 July 27, 2011 I think the instructor did great.... In good faith, I could not just track away from my student having a mal.... And from that video it does not look like the student was in the process of cutting away. Andy's suggestion of doing the cutaway for the student is cool.... I seriously doubt I would manage to pull it off in that situation. So, if I was presented with the same situation... I'd hope I did the exact same thing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #57 July 27, 2011 QuoteIf you don't believe your AFF students are capable of handling a high speed mal why let them in the plane in the first place? I am sure this student looked great on the ground and that the instructor thought he would be fine.... But the video seems to show that the student is not performing his emergency procedures.... Just like so many experienced jumpers failed to do over the years. So while I expect the student to arch out the door.... I still make damn sure I have a good grip. And while I expect the student to be altitude aware, I still check mine. And while I expect the student to pull, I still get ready to help. So while expect any student to be able to handle a mal.... that does not mean I am not ready to help if they seem to be having issues handling it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #58 July 27, 2011 Just more back and forth about all the options in this situation: It's also possible the student was slow on his emergency procedures because the instructor was still there. Just like when going low with a student, where one of the recommended ways to get the student to pull is to to get the hell away from him and pull, so he knows he's on his own. But ya never now. -------------------- "It's fun to nail your slaves." -- Thomas Jefferson (well, I might be wrong about the quote, but he probably thought it) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #59 July 27, 2011 QuoteJust more back and forth about all the options in this situation: It's also possible the student was slow on his emergency procedures because the instructor was still there. Yes, but considering just leaving... I think it is a bit too much to risk to just take off and hope he figures it out."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #60 July 28, 2011 Quote.... I am....ready to help if they seem to be having issues handling it. Good thing, too! It's AFFIs like that who manage to save a bunch of Level 1 jumpers from disaster. Some here have expressed some level of confidence that the student would be able to handle this on his own. You guys have much more faith and trust in Level 1 skydives than I do. Call me chickenshit if you like but I don't. I went into every AFF jump with the thought that things are going to shit and I'm gonna be there when it happens.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
