Chasing your student into the ground!?!

[Deisel 35]

Like others have said, you probaly won't get your rating pulled. But as a rating holder, hell as a skydiver in general, you have to decide what you are going to do. Make that decision before you get in the plane and be prepared to live (or die) with it.

Personally - I've got no friends under 2K. I'd most likely keep trying till around 1500 but absolutely no lower.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[catfishhunter 1]

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Like others have said, you probaly won't get your rating pulled. But as a rating holder, hell as a skydiver in general, you have to decide what you are going to do. Make that decision before you get in the plane and be prepared to live (or die) with it.

Personally - I've got no friends under 2K. I'd most likely keep trying till around 1500 but absolutely no lower.

Then you really haven't made a decision. Second guessing yourself like that turns 1500 into 1300 into 1000 then dead....

(Not directed towards anyone in particular just my feelings) I decided when I hit 500 jumps that I was not the one I would want saving my kids life if shit hit the fan. I want some 20 something, fit, on top of his game stud being there not some beat up old man. I say that because being a coach,AFFI,TI is a tremendous responsibillty not some ego feeding cash cow that lets you rack up the numbers and they (ratings) should be treated as such IMO

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Deisel 35]

Agreed! 2K is my number but knowing myself, I'll keep going if I'm close enough. And yes you are correct - that's how people end up dead. But as I recommended earlier, we all have to be preparred to live and die with these choices.
Where did the quote coe from that says 'it's not a tragedy to die doing something you love'? Truer words have never been spoken.

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[popsjumper 2]

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The debate is about responsibility as well. A coach is not responsible for pulling for a student. The AFFI is.

AFFIs are not responsible. They are simply qualified, as per USPA AFFIE training, to do so. No more, no less.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[polarbear 1]

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[LloydDobbler 2]

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This brings up a point that is of interest to me since I am about to take a coach course (and I will be sure to ask about this scenario!). I know that a coach is not trained, nor supposed to, pull for someone. But if a coach is on a jump with someone who has obviously frozen up, is he/she required to back off and depend on an AAD to save their locked up student? If the coach DOES move in and pull for the student, would their rating be pulled?

To elaborate on what some of the other posters have said, yes, your role as a coach is not to save the student. Yes, you may be subjecting yourself to liability if you do (possibly if you don't, for that matter, but if you try to pull for them and something goes wrong, it's my thought that the paper trail will likely work against you.)

As others have said, as a coach (& at some point as an instructor), the best thing you can do is pitch your own pilot chute. There's another very important reason besides just "saving yourself" and "not biting off more than you can chew" - it's because the student should know what to do if they see that happen.

The best, hands-down, last-resort signal to a coach student who's not deploying is a big, open canopy coming off of their coach's back. They should have been briefed on this before the jump. And if they've locked up, that may be just the signal they need to snap out of it.

Bottom line is, a coaching student knows how to save themselves. They've been cleared for self-supervision. The responsibility for saving their life has shifted from the instructor to them. That doesn't mean you don't go out of your way to make it a safe skydive - but once you hit a certain altitude, all bets are off.

No one wants to see someone go in, but the best approach is to plan the dive, and dive the plan.

Signatures are the new black.

[popsjumper 2]

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The responsibility for saving their life has shifted from the instructor to them.

Just to be clear. The Instructor is NOT responsible for saving anyone at any time. The jumper has ultimate responsibility.

Now, any I worth his salt will do everything he possibly can, short of dying, to save students lives. But if the worst happens, it's NOT the I's responsibility for the outcome.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 143]

There was a very interesting discussion this weekend between someone who is starting the path towards becoming an AFF-I and 2 current AFF-I's (well one is not so current).

They discussed the mindset of an AFF instructor and how you need to think differently and the responsibilities. It was very enlightening and I must say it is the first discussion that I have witnessed a 600+ jumper clearly hesitant.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[davelepka 4]

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But if the worst happens

Keep in mind, the 'worst' happening could include the student throwing the PC in your face if they get their shit together at the same time you're closing for the pull. Another one that would suck balls is if the student's Cypres fires as you close in for the pull, nothing like getting hit by deploying canopy to ruin your day. You could another layer of suck if you have a Cypres and it fires at the same time as the students while you're right next to them, now you have the potential for a nice reserve wrap.

There are reasons the coaches are not supposed to pull for a student, some of them are above, and the other biggie is because they haven't been trained to do so. Put them in the middle of the shit, and who's to say that they'll have presence of mind to chase the student and watch their position relative to the student's PC. If you get over or directly in front of them when they (or the AAD) finally deciedes to pull, you just created more problems than you sloved.

None of this is mentioning the amount of time it takes to dock, stabilize and actually get a hand on the PC and get it out. A trained AFF I who has stopped spins, assisted with pulls, and actually pulled for students in the past will realize this, and realize that there comes a point in the jump where if you're not there, you're never going to get there in time to get the job done, and you need to bail.

If you don't have hands on the harness by 1500ft, you might as well just dump yourself because you're not going to make it. All you're going to do is get in the way of the Cypres (if it works) or suck yourself down so low that you'll go in trying to deploy your own canopy. If you figure a perfect pull would take 3 seconds from dock to PC extraction, that puts you right in Cypres-fire land with one hand on the harness and the other reaching back over the rig for the main PC, and that's if it goes perfect. If you don't get the perfect grip, or the student figths you, or you miss the handle, or you blink one too many times, it's over and thanks to Airtec things are about to get interresting.

A coach needs to do his job, and that includes leaving at break off, setting the good example for the student of planning the dive and diving the plan, reinforcing the pull priorities, and doing their best to make the student feel lonley in freefall below break off. Keep in mind that not too many years ago before coaches existed, students cleared to self-supervise would have been alone, and self supervising. There was nobody to save them then, and below break off when jumping with a coach, there's nobody to save them now.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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The responsibility for saving their life has shifted from the instructor to them.

Just to be clear. The Instructor is NOT responsible for saving anyone at any time. The jumper has ultimate responsibility.

Now, any I worth his salt will do everything he possibly can, short of dying, to save students lives. But if the worst happens, it's NOT the I's responsibility for the outcome.

Absolutely correct.

Mistaken wording on my part. Earlier in the post, I mentioned "As others have said, as a coach (& at some point as an instructor), the best thing you can do is pitch your own pilot chute." But when I reiterated, I wasn't specific enough in my wording.

When you step out of an airplane, pulling a ripcord/pitching a pilot chute/saving your own life is always ultimately your responsibility.

As you mentioned, as an instructor, I'll chase a student until I can do nothing else to save their life. I have no friends below 2000'.

A coach is a different matter altogether.

Signatures are the new black.

[popsjumper 2]

You make AFFI seems so freakin' scary!


Well, yes, that's because it can be!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

I was privy to that conversation as well.

Some have the gumption to make good AFFIs....some are questionable and some just plain don't have the mindset. That makes me worry.

Flying skills is one thing.

Having the heart to get the job done when things don't go perfectly right is another.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[peregrinerose 0]

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A coach needs to do his job, and that includes leaving at break off, setting the good example for the student of planning the dive and diving the plan, reinforcing the pull priorities, and doing their best to make the student feel lonley in freefall below break off. Keep in mind that not too many years ago before coaches existed, students cleared to self-supervise would have been alone, and self supervising. There was nobody to save them then, and below break off when jumping with a coach, there's nobody to save them now.

One of the hardest things for me is taking off the AFFI hat and putting on the coach hat in cases like this. A vast majority of my jumps now are AFF, so when I do the occasional coach jump, the instinct is to get right in there when the student brain farts.

I had a coach student recently... The last dock, he reached, flipped on his back, about 6K. He was supposed to turn/track at 5500. He was belly down about 4500, I gave him an altimeter signal, but he was frazzled and didn't see it. He turned away from me and started to 'track' just above 3500 (at which point I pulled, hoping he'd see me deploy since his track was anything but straight). Every instinct was to chase him down, and give him 'pull' or pull for him. That is not the role of coach, however.

He ended up pulling about 2300. When we landed, I was hoarse from screaming 'pull' at him as I watched him keep going, and my sphincter was definitely twitching. I now owe beer as this is the first student I've had dump low.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Scrumpot 1]

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...about 4500, I gave him an altimeter signal, but he was frazzled and didn't see it. He turned away from me and started to 'track' just above 3500...

Your "mistake" here, in this case - as a coach (and jumping in the role of a coach, in a coach jump) was even "being there" with/in proximity to him, BELOW his assigned break/track altitude.

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He was supposed to turn/track at 5500.

Then, at 5,500 all he should have seen from (and of) you is the bottoms of your feet... tracking distinctively, definitively and purposefully AWAY FROM HIM!

Let alone, further...

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"...about 4,500 I then gave him

this signal, or that" ---Should have been your feet fading even FURTHER and FASTER into the distance!

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Then "...3,500 feet"

You're STILL there? - - -

See where this is going (went)?
Not being disparaging. Just maybe emphasizing/illustrating a little more is all. Your post gives great illustrative and anecdotal value as to precisely WHY the roles are what they are, and are so clearly defined, and I think you would agree - (and I think you yourself are saying): be adhered to.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Beachbum 0]

Thanks for the input (spot on, btw!), everyone! As expected, the course instructor who is also an S&TA replied with the "never" train of thought. I even asked about a situation in which I think I might be more likely to risk going against training, which would be a currency jump with someone jumping a rig without an AAD. ... same answer ... a resounding NO!

oh ... and yes, I did pass the course, beer will be there next weekend!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[peregrinerose 0]

I disagree with you on this one. It's not possible for a coach to give pointers on tracking if the bottom of one's feet rather than one's eyes are directed at the student. At 5500, I was there (as I should have been given that it was HIS job to turn/track, and it's my job to know exactly what he's doing and when... If I'm not watching him, I can't give feedback), from 4500 down I was backsliding, still watching him... and nowhere near him, with plenty of separation for safe canopy deployment in the event he actually did pull on time.

Edited to add... here's a review of Cat G coach jumps, which very specifically states that the coach stays in place and observes the track. This student had no awareness at all of where I was from the time he flipped at 6K down... so tracking/hand signals/pulling all are irrelevant when the student is completely unaware.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section4/CategoryG/DiveFlows/tabid/237/Default.aspx

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Scrumpot 1]

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...here's a review of Cat G coach jumps, which very specifically states that the coach stays in place and observes the track.

Right. Now, remember your training that you received, during your (Coach's in this case) rating course, for what to do when the STUDENT FAILS to recognize his break-off altitude and does NOT waive-off (and subsequently begin his/her track) on their own, when they are supposed to?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[peregrinerose 0]

Of course...and also remember how many times in training we are told 'this is what you do for the course, but in real life.... ' There is no way in hell I'm turning my back on an unaware student and tracking. I'm going backslide to a safe distance where I can keep an eye on him, both for my safety and for his own feedback at the end of the coach jump.

For the record, those on the ground thought I actually had tracked away due to the separation between us. It was one of those high cloud days where it's easy to see bodies in freefall. The looks on people's faces as we walked in from that jump were absolutely priceless... lots of concern and the S&TA had witnessed the low pull... he definitely handled the situation well. To the student's credit, he also handled the follow-up talks very well... he messed up, but is completely the type that will learn from it and move on and be a better skydiver for it.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[DSE 3]

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Of course...and also remember how many times in training we are told 'this is what you do for the course, but in real life.... ' There is no way in hell I'm turning my back on an unaware student and tracking. I'm going backslide to a safe distance where I can keep an eye on him, both for my safety and for his own feedback at the end of the coach jump.

Another opinion is that if the student sees you beat feet and deploy, it'll trigger them to do the same. Every student knows (should know) a track signifies the end of the skydive. If they see you backsliding, they may think the skydive is still in progress, and not recognize the urgency to deploy.

[peregrinerose 0]

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Of course...and also remember how many times in training we are told 'this is what you do for the course, but in real life.... ' There is no way in hell I'm turning my back on an unaware student and tracking. I'm going backslide to a safe distance where I can keep an eye on him, both for my safety and for his own feedback at the end of the coach jump.

I agree... if the student is aware of the instructor. In this particular instance, from the time he inverted, there was no awareness at all of where I was, no look at altimeter, it was that glazed look we've all seen on students from time to time. This was confirmed on the ground in debrief.
Another opinion is that if the student sees you beat feet and deploy, it'll trigger them to do the same. Every student knows (should know) a track signifies the end of the skydive. If they see you backsliding, they may think the skydive is still in progress, and not recognize the urgency to deploy.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[polarbear 1]

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If they see you backsliding, they may think the skydive is still in progress, and not recognize the urgency to deploy

I personally backslide, but I'm either waving off (at wave off altitude) or giving them the pull signal while I'm doing it, and of course I pull at 3500. I go over those signals on the ground every time.

I can understand the notion of tracking, but I think it's better to keep eyes on the student and I think you can get the 'pull' message across without tracking.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[ufk22 32]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you. There are very good reasons why USPA has the "end of coach jump" procedures, and it's important to properly explain them to the student and then follow them exactly, and giving the pull sign is not part of the drill.
The idea is to clearly indicate to the student that the dive is over.
1. Wave off
2. turn and track to gain sufficient seperation
3. Deploy at or hopefully above the student's minimum pull altitude.

What should the student be trained?
1.If you see me wave off, turn and track, then deploy
2. If you see me turn and track, deploy immediately
3. If you see me deploy, deploy immediately

Having you watch the student go low has no benifit for the student. Being able to tell the student how low they went has no benifit for the student.
The dive was over. Just because the student didn't do their job is no reason for you not to do yours.
Instructors go in or get the Cypres award because they lack the dicipline to follow standard procedures every time.
From a selfish point of view, follow the procedures to protect yourself. If you student ends up dead or injured because of lack of deployment at a proper altitiude, your having done everything "by the book" is your protection. Having done thing your way rather than the USPA way can be used against you to indicate possible neglegence.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Scrumpot 1]

He was back on his belly again & looking at you at 4,500 Jen - you said so yourself. You began to then flash him signs and signals. Further down to 3,500. My contention is, that if you instead gave one good affirmative/solid/assertive waive, turned, tracked - BURNED and deployed ...he would not have then continued all the way down to 2,300. And THAT is the prescribed procedure, which also should have been adhered to, IMO.

Again - not trying to be either disparaging or adversarial - just trying to take advantage of the valuable OPPORTUNITY you have presented us, to deeper evaluate, consider - and yes, because I think it is in this case appropriate to do so: "Monday morning QB" even, just a bit.

You are absolutely right that the Cat-G dive flow states that normal diveflow calls for the coach to remain in place to observe the students track. However - (Coaches Rating Course IRM Section 8, Para E {7}): "The Coach observes the student execute the planned breakoff without signal (from coach) - UNLESS NECESSARY, and track. IOW - if/when (as in this case) the student (for whatever reason) fails to recognize his planned/assigned break-off track altitude himself - your "job" then becomes CLEAR... ...and that is that then YOU DO IT! It shows him (her) - it "wakes them up", and it is (or should be) very clearly defined (and pre-planned) that if/when they see you do that - they then DEPLOY IMMEDIATELY.

That procedure has been tried, true, and PROVEN TO BE EFFECTIVE (sometimes, sadly - even) IN BLOOD.

I see no reason (even in your case illustration given) to have deviated from it.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[peregrinerose 0]

I did NOT say he was looking at me... I said that I gave a signal. Those are two entirely different things. How many hand signals have you given to students that they were completely unaware of? As I have said repeatedly, he had no awareness below the 6K, and this was confirmed in the debrief. Me turning and tracking would have had no effect differently as he had no registration of where I was.

It's ok to Monday morning quarterback... had I turned/tracked at 5500, and posted exactly this scenario, some on here would be telling me not to turn my back on an obviously unaware student, because if he suddenly decided to track in my general direction due to disorientation, the results could be fatal in that particular instance (and this is exactly why I did not turn/track, and I would do the same thing in the same situation again).

To me... directly watching an unaware student and maintaining an appropriate separation is safer than turning/tracking, potentially losing sight of said student, and setting both of us up for an in air or canopy collision. This is also a lesson that has been learned in blood, and I prefer that it not be mine that ends up shed.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Scrumpot 1]

Okay - I missed the part about him (not?) looking at you. I saw that you've stated he was "glazed" or otherwise (clearly) unaware.

So you do not think that you 'showing him your feet' would have "woken him up"?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone