Chasing your student into the ground!?!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

So if I have multiple ratings, I don't need to follow the proper procedure for either of them???

I don't know. Do you? As far as I know you are free to do whatever you wish.

Quote

Well, this thread started with

Justify all you want. The comment was uncalled for.

Quote

I'm kinda slow on the uptake,

Agreed.

Quote

...so what I'm asking for is an explaination of why your responses about these two very similar situation

What different responses are you talking about? The one here and the one in the other thread that you took totally out of context?

What got you started was my statement that I would put my AFFI skills to work on a Coach jump that went to shit.
I stand by that. What it is about that statement that you don't understand, I don't know. Seems very clear to me.

YOU can do whatever you wish. I elect to do whatever I can to save a students ass if I can. YOU may have a problem with that and you're welcomed to it. I like to think that my students get a warm-fuzzy knowing that I will stick my nose in there to help instead of laying back watching them get themselves into trouble. YMMV.

Now, having said that....
Dude, you're trying my patience. Slow on the uptake is one thing. Mental density is another.
Good day, sir.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

The AFF-I on a coach jump has a lot more skills and experience, and far better judgement in these sorts of situations. And is in a much better place to use that judgement to do "non-coach" stuff.

just to play devil's advocate - the rating someone chooses to go get doesn't guarantee more skill or better judgment (consider a 'coach' that has thousands of jumps and just didn't choose to pursue AFF rating vs a relatively new skydiver that passed the AFF course barely)

just authorization from USPA that he 'should' be

we can't assume a skill level just by virtue of the ratings held - we can only discuss what's appropriate for the authorization and SOPs allowed, and then whether the individual doing the teaching will choose to disregard those standards for either very good or bad reasons

I understand why Andy or Jen would choose to go above and beyond on a coach jump - and I'm ok with that provided the (released to self supervision) student is trained to those expectations and not what is 'typical' for coaches - I'd do it myself for special students, but it'll be clear before the jump, not changed during such that the student is possibly confused or distracted

little surprises during an excellent dives are great (adding turns to a really good Cat B, etc) - any surprises when things are already going bad just make it potentially worse. - IMO, IMHO, YMMV

for me, it's all about following the plan to eliminate surprises


in the end, we're best served by not passing on students that are not ready for self supervision - but that's not always easy to spot in just a couple CatD and Cat E jumps

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

Quote

The AFF-I on a coach jump has a lot more skills and experience, and far better judgement in these sorts of situations. And is in a much better place to use that judgement to do "non-coach" stuff.

just to play devil's advocate - the rating someone chooses to go get doesn't guarantee more skill or better judgment (consider a 'coach' that has thousands of jumps and just didn't choose to pursue AFF rating vs a relatively new skydiver that passed the AFF course barely)

just authorization from USPA that he 'should' be

we can't assume a skill level just by virtue of the ratings held - we can only discuss what's appropriate for the authorization and SOPs allowed, and then whether the individual doing the teaching will choose to disregard those standards for either very good or bad reasons

I understand why Andy or Jen would choose to go above and beyond on a coach jump - and I'm ok with that provided the (released to self supervision) student is trained to those expectations and not what is 'typical' for coaches - I'd do it myself for special students, but it'll be clear before the jump, not changed during such that the student is possibly confused or distracted

little surprises during an excellent dives are great (adding turns to a really good Cat B, etc) - any surprises when things are already going bad just make it potentially worse. - IMO, IMHO, YMMV

for me, it's all about following the plan to eliminate surprises


in the end, we're best served by not passing on students that are not ready for self supervision - but that's not always easy to spot in just a couple CatD and Cat E jumps

Ok, I'll bite. (
An AFF-I has been trained to catch, stabilize and pull for an out of control student. Even without a whole lot of experience, they do (in theory at least) know the proper procedure.

Even with thousands of coach jumps, a coach probably hasn't received that training, and hasn't had to demonstrate it to earn the rating. Say a jumper who loves working with students, but doesn't want the liability of beng an AFF-I and has stayed a coach for years.

And I fully agree with "Plan the dive, dive the plan".

But when things go to shit, you have to improvise. Not throw the plan out the window, but adjust it.

And once more, Perigrinerose pulled at 3500 as a signal to the student.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Jen's (Perigrinrose) posts and perspective, based upon her real life experience she has been willing to share (THANK YOU JEN - FOR THE RECORD) have provided great added value to this conversation, and as with others (and all the other added perspectives to consider) - I appreciate 'em!

For the record, I'm not getting down on anyone, or Jen, for the choices she made. Each jump is different, and in her case the right move might have been to depart the scene and let the student sort things out on their own.

As an AFF I, she as the option to either stick to the coach plan and break off at break off, or deviate from that plan, fall back to her AFF training/experience, and take a different course of action. Which she chooses is up to her and dependent on the jump.

My point, and keeping in mind this thread started with a video of a coach chasing a re-cert jumper down the Cypres fire altitude and almost going in themselves, is that a coach has no such option, and they MUST leave the skydive at the predetermined time. They are not trained to catch, stabilze, or pull for anyone, and not trained to be engaged in a skydive below break off.

An AFF I has options available to them, while a coach is limited by a definite line in the sand, and that line is the break off altitude. Having the discipline to stick to that is the 'job' of the coach.

It's like tandem video exits. Ideally, you leave just ahead of them, and look up at them leaving with the plane in the background. If you're late, and you leave with them, you could end up next to them on the hill, which is downwind of the relative wind, and where the drouge goes when they toss it.

So the rule is that if you miss your exit timing, and don't get off ahead of them, you have to shut down instinct to exit, and let the tandem go by as you wait on the camera step. Once they go by, you trail them off the plane, so now you're looking down at them, and not in the 'hot zone' where the drouge is going. Having the presence of mind to stop yourself if you miss your leading exit and let them go by is a tough lesson for new video guys.

Same thing for the coach. Yes, things might not be going to plan on the bottom end, but that doesn't change your job. No matter how bad you want it to, you need to follow the break off plan, and remove yourself from the situation.

[popsjumper 2]

ToAll:
It's been brought to my attention that I let my comments devolve into the typical DZ.com game of playing the player instead of the ball.

I'll try to avoid that in the future.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Gato 0]

Wow...very interesting thread. I wish I could have seen the footage.

I earned my coach rating last year, and the perspectives here are invaluable to me. I remember an older jumper telling me while I was on student status, "I don't have any friends below 1500 feet."

In my VERY limited experience, I haven't had this situation occur, but I remember during the rating course how much importance was placed on ME not breaking MY hard deck - in fact, that was the one of the only things that would result in an automatic fail during an eval jump.

Just for a point of interest, here's the sequence I was taught for the end of the jump:

Student is to turn and track at 5500.
If he/she does NOT, point to my altimeter, signal the wave off, turn 90 degrees to the student, and give the pull signal as I side slide away, pulling by 3500.

(Not saying this is what everyone should do, just what I was taught, and the procedure I follow, the idea being that you never have to take eyes off the student...until he/she pulls or disappears.)

Having said all of this, I still remember NOT being aware of being given the pull signal from one of my instructors on a 10-second delay - the only time I went low during my student progression. Then again, I WAS in an uncontrolled flat spin, and it's hard to recognize a signal that you're seeing only once per high-speed rotation.

T.I.N.S.

[AdD 1]

If a novice being coached sees their coach with them in freefall below breakoff altitude they may take this to mean that everything is ok if they have lost altitude awareness. On the other hand if a novice sees their coach deploy the message may get through that they had better do the same.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[crotalus01 0]

Thanks for that explanation Dave. In addition to helping explain some of the reasons for not exceeding your training as a coach, you have also just shared invaluable info as to exactly WHY an inexperienced jumper should not be jumping with a tandem. Perhaps you should contribute this same explanation (and an explanation of the "trap door" effect) to a new thread in Safety about the differences between jumping with tandems and a "regular" jump. I would bet most (if not all) sub-300 jumpers have never even thought about relative wind and its affect on the drogue throw.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[Divalent 89]

Here's another dual two-out with a coach/instructor on a recert dive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3VisRC3X9U&

Apparently the jumpers altimeter stuck, and coach/instructor keeps giving the jumper the finger. Both deployed mains, but not high enough to avoided the AAD fire.

[DSE 3]

Quote

Here's another dual two-out with a coach/instructor on a recert dive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3VisRC3X9U&

Apparently the jumpers altimeter stuck, and coach/instructor keeps giving the jumper the finger. Both deployed mains, but not high enough to avoided the AAD fire.

There is nothing "recent" about that video except for the three-year ago upload of something that occurred 5 years ago.
Still a good teaching tool tho.

[cantstandya 0]

I misread that at first too. It says 'recert' not 'recent'

[Divalent 89]

Yeah, I meant "recertification", although probably should have said "recurrency".

Thought it relevant to the discussion above about how long a coach and/or instructor should stick with someone not pulling on time. In this case, it is very likely that had the coach pulled on time, the jumper would have done so shortly thereafter, avoiding the dual two-out. (Clearly giving the pull sign wasn't doing it)