Anyone using a truly "Integrated Student Program"?

[ChrisD 0]

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In fact, I am almost hoping for some non jump weather on my next trip to the DZ so I can get some additional practice in the hanging harness on recognising and responding to malfunctions not to mention just talking skydiving so I can become more solidly grouded in the fundamentals.

Well, don't just hope then. Sunny blues skies or not, if you feel like you need more time, take it. Don't feel rushed because they want you to or you think you have to jump. The sky will always be there, but you know that!

This is part of my point, that so many overlook:

Newbies Don't know any better!

So saying to a newbie that you should go out and get more training, whatever, is just making their lives more stressfull and is not what people that know better should be sayin!!!

I know everyone who shares this opinion means well,

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[SEREJumper 1]

Chris,

I'm not getitng what you are saying, I said if he feels he is not ready, he should seek out the training that he feels he does not understand or needs more practice on. Nobody but himself can know if he is or he thinks he is truely ready.

Do you disagree with that?

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[ChrisD 0]

Your point is well taken, the problem is that you indicate this individual has a realization that they could benifite from more training. The onus of action is placed upon the individual. You have transfered responsibility once again to the newbie! As so many do!

My point is that the newbie is incapeable to make this decision and generally how instruction is givin in this day and age is still the status quo, and is highly finacially driven...

I'm telling ya that the newbies from time one, do what they are told and this includes thinking they are ready or not. The key here is they, the individual, think they are ready based upon the information they recive from others! They don't know any better!

In one condition they think they are ready, in another condition they don't think they are ready,... the instruction is the same!

Too many place the responsibility on the student, this is wrong in the sense that as an organization we can do better.

Another example would be getting your SCUBA certification. It is a lenghthy process, some organizations require over 60 hours of instruction and open water time. Other organisations require only a orientation class and a "lic" person in attendance. This is what you get when you travel to Aruba to take the dive "same day" scuba classes. They teach "only what you need to know" so that you can be in the water in one day! When they get back to the states and then find out their so called certification is worthless, for so many reasons, they are bull shit and then stand there and argue that they have certification and they know what they are doing! They are not safe, but they think they are!
In a similar fashion we all put too much on the students as you indicate when you say: "Nobody but himself can know."

This is a failaciy in our thinking that is all too widely accepted.

One day jump courses are wrong. You cannot teach an individual everything they need to know, as an inexperienced jumper to be able to handel every issue that could arise. Time and surviving newbieness is what makes safe jumpers. You cannot teach experience that is required', this is a difficult concept for most to understand and is the reason one day jump courses persist. I mean this literally!

Part of how we are built is in stressfull situations, our mind starts to slow down! Information required to perform physical actions is not readally accessable! Only thru experience and conditioning can more information be made available for our use. This is not "Muscle Memory," this is something that takes place in our brains, and skydiving instruction is ignoring this!

The process of learning to jump because of this is a testament to the safety of novice equipment,... NOT instruction!!!!

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[jumpwally 0]

+1...seems to have merit and could be tweeked...reminds me of flying school...

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[SecondRound 0]

To update the process. Got my wish last trip the weather went bad. I was the only student at the DZ and I had access to a wealth of experience. I was able to 1 go over my upcoming F/F program, 2.practice repack a canopy, 3. Get into hanging harness and work on flash recognition of malfunctions and appropriate EPs. 4. Discuss canopy skills to practice on the ride down after my remaining SL jumps. Also I was able to listen to the discussions between super experienced jumpers about skydiving which added to my knowledge. All of which I deem we'll worth the drive through bad weather(I woke up next morning to 8 inches of snow). I am on vacation and looks like I can work my schedule to include a day at the Perris tunnel. Fast progress is the last thing on my mind, solid fundamentals are my goal at this stage. I want to be the guy that people can trust on a load to not do something stupid. Soaking up knowledge through being around better skydivers is a path that will let me learn the finer points of being a safe and skilled skydiver. My Wissota instructors are fantastic and I appreciate their passion and willingness to share their experience.

[popsjumper 2]

You listed things having to do with air skills but nothing having to do with basic skydiving knowledge. Do you have an A License Progression Card yet?


I didn't see anything in there about general skydiving knowledge except for:
"I was able to listen to the discussions between super experienced jumpers about skydiving which added to my knowledge."

What knowledge did you gain?

Do you have a SIM?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SecondRound 0]

Should have been more specific. First thing done was my workbook and my A license card which was done with the chief instructor. I have had a copy of the SIM for months and have been going through the ISP section along withe the BSRs and FARs. My work book is a loose leaf binder with tables of specific items to study along with references to the source documents. I am impressed at the level of organization and thoroughness it gives to the learning process. It reminds me of my Nuclear Powerplant Operator qual book in its approach.

[popsjumper 2]

WooooHoooo! Good on you AND your DZ instructors.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[gowlerk 1,903]

The endless debate about which DZ uses the best progression method is quite comical. Pretty much everyone thinks that the method they are most familiar with is the best. And they are mostly all correct. That fact is that every DZ chooses the method that makes the most efficient use of A) the available aircraft and B) the available instructors.

Only after that decision is made do they develop a rational for why their way is the "best". The best way to learn skydiving is to skydive. Find qualified instructors and then jump as much as you can.

Ken

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SecondRound 0]

gowlerk

The endless debate about which DZ uses the best progression method is quite comical. Pretty much everyone thinks that the method they are most familiar with is the best. And they are mostly all correct. That fact is that every DZ chooses the method that makes the most efficient use of A) the available aircraft and B) the available instructors.

Only after that decision is made do they develop a rational for why their way is the "best". The best way to learn skydiving is to skydive. Find qualified instructors and then jump as much as you can.

+1

Ken

[ChrisD 0]

You are soo close to the psychology that concerns me here when you say: "everyone thinks that the method they are most familiar with is the best,.." and this is the problem that is at the heart of my point,...

On the other hand; the solution: "The best way to learn skydiving is to skydive."
But! How you learn, time spent, etc,...I'm saying we can do better than the standard one day course, we can do a lot better!

In a sense we re splitting hairs somewhat, but not when I point out you can't learn everything you need to know in day! We just are not built that way! What I'm speaking about is "method" independent and is something that is part of our physiology. Once we begin to better understand how the human mind works, then the masses will accept, no everyone will welcome, the demise of the one day course!

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[popsjumper 2]

gowlerk

The endless debate about which DZ uses the best progression method is quite comical. Pretty much everyone thinks that the method they are most familiar with is the best. And they are mostly all correct. That fact is that every DZ chooses the method that makes the most efficient use of A) the available aircraft and B) the available instructors.

Only after that decision is made do they develop a rational for why their way is the "best". The best way to learn skydiving is to skydive. Find qualified instructors and then jump as much as you can.

Ken

Where do safety considerations come into play....so far,

aircraft
instructors
jump

.
.
.Safety?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[gowlerk 1,903]

Chris, part of the real point I'm trying to make is that skydiving is really just a cool recreational activity. There are really only two things that matter. The first is of course that you survive the jump. The second is that you enjoy your jumps. How fast you learn and how high your skill set gets is completely tertiary to these things.


It's only skydiving, it matters naught in the big scheme of things. But I like it.

Ken

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,903]

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Where do safety considerations come into play....so far,

" Find qualified instructors"

That's where.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[popsjumper 2]

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" Find qualified instructors" That's where.

Well, yes. One would hope so.

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The best way to learn skydiving is to skydive. Find qualified instructors and then jump as much as you can.

If we are talking young jumpers, they have no clue as to who is "qualified" and who is not. On top of that, good instructors are hard to find.

And yes, that depends on what you consider "good". Some of us have higher standards than others.

The ISP is, IMO, a very good guideline. In my travels I've noticed that schools that properly follow the ISP tend to put out more knowledgeable skydivers...but then again, much of that depends on the thoroughness (the 'quality") of the instructors.

Skydive Spaceland and Skydive Chicago use the ISP, IIRC.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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The tandem jumps follow the same dive flow as Cat A and Cat B AFF jumps. I offer nearly every single tandem student the opportunity to do those dive flows as it is right now. Challenging students is how we grow the sport. I'm not a fan of "thrill ride" tandems.

I love you, Chuck.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SEREJumper 1]

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Your point is well taken, the problem is that you indicate this individual has a realization that they could benifite from more training. The onus of action is placed upon the individual. You have transfered responsibility once again to the newbie! As so many do!

Chris,

I think the confusion going on here in this thread is that I was speaking in terms of second round not being a typical "newbie", he had some jumps/skydiving experience from the past and was getting back into the sport in which gear, malfunctions were somewhat different then what he was used to.

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[ChrisD 0]

gowlerk

Chris, part of the real point I'm trying to make is that skydiving is really just a cool recreational activity. There are really only two things that matter. The first is of course that you survive the jump. The second is that you enjoy your jumps. How fast you learn and how high your skill set gets is completely tertiary to these things.


It's only skydiving, it matters naught in the big scheme of things. But I like it.

Ken

I will, , defiantly admit I frequently forget about the fun aspect of things, probably something to do with my upbringing and having a "mission" oriented history. And the fact that I have seen way too many bodies that don't talk back,...

Thank you for the reminder.C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChrisD 0]

SEREJumper

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Your point is well taken, the problem is that you indicate this individual has a realization that they could benifite from more training. The onus of action is placed upon the individual. You have transfered responsibility once again to the newbie! As so many do!

Chris,

I think the confusion going on here in this thread is that I was speaking in terms of second round not being a typical "newbie", he had some jumps/skydiving experience from the past and was getting back into the sport in which gear, malfunctions were somewhat different then what he was used to.

No dude I get what your saying, and I value every contribution you have pointed out, I am on a bit of a roll with education because of the intense learning experience I have had over the last few years! Six years to be exact! Six years of learning psychology by getting anotheer degree from an institute of highr learning. Expensive and painfull and way too little beer! And what,... now I know way too much shit that I don't really know? Six years of learning about learning and the bottom line what I have learned scares the crap out of me!

I approached school this time with an agenda! I had a focus and perspective that most students don't have because they don't know any better! And I mean this in a nice, lighthearted way. Most students have enough of a struggle with money, juggling time, life and women/men boyfriend girlfriend. So much so that they do, in large part have enough on their plate that most just do what they are told to do, most don't have enough time to apply what they are learning to past life experiences, nor do most have the ability to juggle concepts and play the what if game with what they are currently learning. That's just the way it is.

Now I come along and as an proffessor starts to pontificate knowlege all over the floor, I start to apply all of this to real life situations. I start to try to apply all of this research to stress, combat, and group collaborative process's. What works in teaching, how to teach, what do individuals remember and why do they remember some things and not others? What is "muscle memory" for example? Which is bull shit by the way,...


Here is an example of what I call a lost opportunity that took place just yesterday:

AFF student about to get on aircraft; asks a simple question; response from very knowlagable skydiver; "remember your training"

The comment: "remember your training" is the lost opportunity, the person who said this meant well, they really did!

But the lost oppertunity was a missed chance at rehearsal and practice. Rehearsal and practice is actually how we learn! So in this example, in the same amount of time as it took to say :"remember..." the person could have said: "look, reach, peel, pull,...cutaway...look (reserve) reach, pull, etc"

Your absolutly right when you point out he is not a typical "newbie" he may be in more perile than a typical newbie because of the way OTHERS assume he has knowledge when he says he has past experience. We are social beings which means we get a lot, most actually, of our information from others. This has profound implacations in learning theory! Remember when our parents, (genereally when we were goaded into doing something they didn't approve of) said something like:

"If little Jimmy jumped off of a bridge, would you jump off too,"

Generally this is the shame type of getting dissed by mom or dad or whoever,...

But the point is YES! If little Jimmy jumped off the bridge we are too! Because we are social cratures! And get the majority of information from others!

One of the problems is that I frequently shorten my responses, some of this stuff is so increadably simple BUT is so increadably complex to fully explain

It is when we start to fully analyze, to really tear apart individual topics that some of this theory about learning is understood. It is with this realization that if we applied what we know, how things work, what works in teaching stressfull actions and responses

Well the point is that we are not applying what we know in teaching to skydiving, what we are doing is teaching what and how we were taught! We as social beings kind of default to a more comfortable way of doing things! Stereotypes and shortcuts abound! I can tell from reading your posts we are trying to help as best we can, that is clearly apparent in your kind and thoughtfull words. No confusion,...I defanatly value your experience and kind mannar

and as you clearly know this is a fight that isn't going to end,...Don't yo find it very frustrating,... I mean some of the stupid that exsists,


But God bless you and everyone who tries to do the best we can too help others!!!

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ufk22 32]

What you don't understand here is (I'm working off a few assumptions)...
Based on your scenario, the experienced jumper was not acting as the student's instructor. The question was about proper cut-away proceedures. The student had already been trained. The jumper wasn't the one that had trained him.
If this is all the case, the experienced jumper did exactly the right thing.
The last thing the student needed was any type of review that didn't exactly match the way he was trained.
If you would have done your version of EP review ("look, reach, peel, pull,...cutaway...look (reserve) reach, pull, etc") for a student of mine just prior to the airplane ride I would have been pissed and spent half the ride up going back over things. I teach EP's look red, reach red, LOOK SILVER, peel and pull red, reach silver, etc
I don't need anyone, how ever well intentioned, giving my students any advice that, although not wrong, is not the same as what I've been teaching them, ESPECIALLY E-P'S.

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Here is an example of what I call a lost opportunity that took place just yesterday:

AFF student about to get on aircraft; asks a simple question; response from very knowlagable skydiver; "remember your training"

The comment: "remember your training" is the lost opportunity, the person who said this meant well, they really did!

But the lost oppertunity was a missed chance at rehearsal and practice. Rehearsal and practice is actually how we learn! So in this example, in the same amount of time as it took to say :"remember..." the person could have said: "look, reach, peel, pull,...cutaway...look (reserve) reach, pull, etc"

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

• Quote

[ChrisD 0]

Your making an attempt to learn something but you have missed my point somewhat, It's not about any particualr EP, It's more about the learning process.

Second guessing what your pointing out is akin to saying:

I'm just not going to answer any questions,...Period , (what because it might conflict with something else?)


You also raise one of my pet peeves when you mention, and thanks for picking this, why are we teaching two different cutaway/ reserve senarios???

Why isn't this standerdized??? The look reach pull VRS. Look look pull pull???

I'll tell ya why: It's because of the strenghths of the personalities who belive in one method, because that's the way they were taught, as compared with the fact that one method may be more reliable when we take into account stress and the human response! Think of this point another way: The effect size comparison, the strength of belife of one way over another way is stronger in the direction, the bias if you will, in the direction of how we were taught! And has nothing to do with any difference or effectivness in the end result. This is another difficult concept that has been researched to shit and back,...How we feel about something, how comfortable we are with a concept ISN'T BASED UPON THE RESULTS!

But this is for another day, back to your point which I think is a great observation,...

"The last thing the student needed was any type of review that didn't exactly match the way he was trained."

Do you answer this persons question?

Sometimes people answer questions with out this insight!

Pick another EP or something else, do you answeere the question with a flip reply? Or can you take the time to do a rehearsal, It's this rehearsal and practice where learning takes place. I mention the missed opportunity senario because if you take this a little further, many individuals are asking the question because they have forgotten something and would like a little reminder.

What about in the condition where someone asks something because they don't know? And someone answeres: "remember your training" So now in this case the person really does try to remember thair training, THEY CAN NOT, and now we are practicing trying to calm them down or they spend the ride up in panic cause they don't know what is important as compared with something minor? This is the missed opportunity that I speak of,..

If everyone was on the same page there wouldn't be any issues about this conflict that you so astutly point out.

But more importantly the person qets the required information, jogs their memory, and then they can focus on practice and further learning. This is more practice, more learning and is not a missed opportunity! And sometimes they really are asking for help,... you can give it or not...





On a side note because you have mentioned the cutaway confusion with two different procedures and in the same sentance "how they have been taught,"

there is a lot of research that says: doing something in a stressfull situation, your success rate drops considerably with increased stress. If you suscribe to the look, look way of thinking you are ignoring what we called the dominant behavior! What this means, the quick version, is that when you reach for something, anything, that then requires a physical action, DON'T INTERUPT that process because your mind might literally lock up! This means if you reach for your cutaway the next thing you should do is pull it! Because to ignore the dominant behavior is risking the fact that you might not remember to go back afteer peerforming some, any, intermeddiate process!!!!


(yes I know the arguments about shifting handels, speed, etc)

you want to know something else about having two different procedures?

All of this talk about not changing the way someone was "originally" taught? Most of it is what we call ancedontal theory,...: in other words bull pucky, no real data, no real basis or fact to support this! Yes some will point out if there is an "dominant behavior" there is confusion research which supports this somewhat but the effect size is smaller than teaching a new dominant behavior!!! This is a diffucult concept, and I have taken some real shortcuts here,... see what you can make of it.


Why are there 2 procudures anyways?

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ufk22 32]

So, have you ever taught a first jump course?????

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[popsjumper 2]

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Why are there 2 procudures anyways?

Research equipment history on this. You'll learn about ripcords, cable lengths, sweeping and other stuff.

Tell me more about this "Look, Look" procedure. I've never heard that one before.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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Skydive Spaceland and Skydive Chicago use the ISP, IIRC.

As does Raeford Parachute Center (4-page card, in the exact order on the card)

[SecondRound 0]

Staying on track to integrate my training. Took 4 minutes of tunnel time at Perris Valley today. First question out of the tunnel was can I do more time and then added two more minutes. I came away with six minutes of freefall and a DVD to share with my coaches back at Wissota. Tyler was an awesome coach and the results were obvious on the DVD. I feel much more confident as I move to freefall after my S/L jumps.