DSE 3 #51 April 21, 2011 QuoteThe time when everyone learns to be an instructor should be during the course. Why are candidates expected to train on their own and show up to be evaluated? No where else that I know of is it done this way. For any other professional rating you go to a school to learn the trade. At the end of the course you are tested. AFFIRC is just show up and test. IMO this should be changed. Quote It's called Instructor Examiner not Instructor instructor for a reason~ Doctors and Lawyers get their training THEN go before an evaluation 'board' to certify. My son went to school two years to become an A&P, then comes the FAA exam to get licensed. From Pilots to Pirates to insurance agents & welders, there are MANY jobs that you train for 'on your own' so to speak, before getting the 'OK' from a licensing organization to continue on without the oversight. To toss my own 2cents... Candidates should show up to a course knowing how to fly, how to teach (this is what the mandatory Coaching period is intended to assure). The course isn't to teach you to be an instructor. It's to teach techniques that aren't part of the coaching skill set, to augment the (should be) current knowledge of the candidate, and to test the candidate on knowledge and ability. For example, an AFFI candidate should already know precisely how to teach, but rollovers and spinstops aren't part of their skillset, so these are added. If you have the opportunity to learn these skills prior to the course, then you'll certainly be better armed when you challenge the eval jumps. The *worst* candidates (IMO) are those that freefly their asses off, then show up to a coach or AFFI course expecting to learn the requisite belly skills. The more one knows about the SIM, IRM, handsignals, levels, the better the course will go because one can then focus on learning very specific skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #52 April 21, 2011 Quote If you want to admit to being a carnival ride operator, that's up to you. I own a skydiving dropzone, most of our customers are in town for one or two days and they are in New Zealand to see our beautiful country and while they are here they experience many different exciting activities. You call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. Nowdays people can try skydiving once, they are willing to pay for it and they are keen to experience it...once. There are many activities on offer, skydiving is just one of them, remember that. Most of the customers in NZ are one timers, or at lest while they are here, they hardly have time for anything other than the 5 minute briefing the jump and the ride back to the village, they are usually in a hurry to get to their glacier hike, helecopter ride, quad bikes, bungee jump... Things are different here. When we are cancelled for weather etc etc. peole cry because they cannot do their skydive here at our DZ, most are not interested in learning to skydive. We give them all the information they want if they are interested in learning and we are currently developing a larger landing area more suitable for students, our staff get free fun jumps, we will start doing students in the near future, we are planning on having a DC3 boogie (at a different location) and coupleing it with the New Zealand formation record, all our staff are sport skydivers, we are sponsoring our straff to go to events such as records and competitions... call it what you will but it seems you have a picture of what skydiving is about and that is it. Pull your head out of the sand, it is not the 80's anymore. QuoteWhen did I ever suggest that you treat the student unfairly (which is think is an apt description of making one feel like an idiot for not wantng to participate in the skydive)? Participation in the skydive can be as simple as being there, by being there thay are participating, some want more than that I know, bit for many simply being there is out of thier comfort zone. It is not a carnival ride it is an adventure tourism activity. Tandem Skydiving has evolved into a large industry that didin't exist 20 years ago, it has created a new facet to the industry and without tandem skydiving the sport would be in rapid decline. We wouldn't have as many turbine DZ's with great facilities and sport jumpers would b paying US$50 a ticket. Our dz was a C180 operation 12 months ago, a C185 operation 5 months ago and now we are a turbine porter operation giving free sport skydives to those that work here and offering slots to those that wish to skydive here... Without the carnies bro, our sport would be almost dead, that is an oil and $$$ thing, but tandems and the bucket listers have saved our sport. In some places the sport is shunned for the money, but here that is not the case. Give them a smile a warm welcome and show them a good time and hey.... maybe 3% of them may learn to skydive... QuoteI think the tone of my whole post was one of giving the student more than they expect. In some cases it's providing the service of training, and the experience of being an active part of the jump. In other cases it's being professional enough to understand that not everyone has the desire to participate in the jump. There you go, that is a U Turn but you are getting there. QuoteEven if the chance of them coming back is nil, the 'bucket listers' deserve the consideration of understanding all of their options when it comes to their jump. After all, it they're only going to jump once, you can't put off things like pulling a 'ripcord' until the next jump. What I have found with those that wish to pull the cord, is that it can produce an undue anxiety, while taking away from the experience, they are so worried about failure that they forget to enjoy the rest of it. If that is what they wanted out of the skydive... cool. but if they came to experienvce the view and/or the sensation of freefall, then just let them do that! I have seen some pull the release at altitude and we jump from 18k, I don't want to be under parachute at 18k. That is why (here) it is strictly for those that have experienced a skydive before. QuoteIf you're going to choose for them, before even offering, in my opinion that's taking away their right to make up their own minds, and poor customer service on your part. We advertise what we offer them, and we give them a great experience. Here are some reviews, read them and decide what you feel they placed importance on... Quote I went to Franz Josef to see the glacier, bit found myself being talked into doing a skydive, my friend said it would be the most amazing experience I would ever have....AND IT WAS!!! I was scared out of my brain but Rhys made me feel 100% safe and comfortable! I just wish I had gone higher that 12,000 feet! Everyone at Skydive Franz are wonderful! I will be telling ALL MY FRIENDS!! If I can do it, anyone can do it!!! - DOOOOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTT!!!! I JUMPED OUT OF A PLANE FROM 18,000ft!!!!! I still cant believe it!!! What an AMAZING experience!!!! Everyone at SKYDIVE Franz are super friendly and super professional! I am SO glad I did the highest jump! and even more glad I decided to get a DVD! My only piece of advice is jump as high as you can and get some sort of footage!! AMAZING!!!! Excellent, lady instructor, very relaxed. best views in NZ, highest jump in NZ 18,000ft. WOW! what an amazing experience. I jumped from 18,000ft Twice in one day. Rhys, leigh nd the team were absolutely spot on, and I will definately go back for another jump if I get back to New Zealand. The guys (and girls) make me feel very at ease and really looked after me for the day as I had never jumped before. Also, the scenery was just unbelieveable. we could see the lakes on the eastern side of mount cook just before we jumped! I can't recommend these guys highly enough. I did an 18.000 ft. skydive with this company a few days ago. They're really professional and concerned about safety and tell you everything you have to know for a safe jump and landing. As they are a smaller company they're more personal than others (I did an other skydive at lake taupo, so I can compare it) and "faster": no useless waiting for ages between pick-up in town and going in the air! Good organisation and friendly staff make it a 10/10 experience. Great jump! And everyone knows the glaciers make a great background for a jump out of an airplane! What an experience! I definitely give these guys a 10/10. They were professional and safety conscious, but at the same time were really friendly & made sure that I was having fun before, during and after the jump. The views on the way up and the way down were amazing, and at 18,000 feet, seeing the top of the tallest mountain in NZ was really something! I definitely recommend getting the photo/film package - they're both really high quality and are a great way to show off your experience. Thanks so much to everyone at Skydive Franz for turning me into an adrenaline junkie! :D fantastic professional and fun company. what an amazing and gorgeous experience. i wanted to head straight back up again. we had a small bit of cloud cover which i was worried would affect the pictures but it didn't at all, in fact i think it made the pictures even better. the visibility of the glaciers was incredible you could even see the tears of the avalanche maiden! I went for the 18,000ft jump and got free fall photographer and dvd and was so impressed. definitely worth the money. The quality was unreal. Now I have people Like you stating that we are carnies that could care less about what our customers Really want, and i have people Like DSE telling me that our video products are less than what is acceptable Because we don't use vegas or sony cameras), yet I have nothing but great reviws from our customers. Did you notice the importance placed on the view???? would you rather these people were staring at an alti the whole time... things are different here, it is not a dusty dessert with nothing to look at, most of our customers come for the view. So we give it to them."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #53 April 21, 2011 QuoteThe *worst* candidates (IMO) are those that freefly their asses off, then show up to a coach or AFFI course expecting to learn the requisite belly skills. The worst are those that have a high opinion of themelves, cannot fly very well at all, be it on their belly or head, and cannot fly a parachute to save themselves. they want to be an instructor for the status. They are out there..."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #54 April 21, 2011 QuoteReally want, and i have people Like DSE telling me that our video products are less than what is acceptable Because we don't use vegas or sony cameras), yet I have nothing but great reviws from our customers I've never seen one of your videos, ever, let alone commented on them to anyone. Must be aliens in your tinfoil hat, buddy. Identify a link to anywhere I've commented on one of your videos. You can't. QuoteYou call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. You call it "creative" and we call it a lie and that's what it is, there is no getting around that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ufk22 32 #55 April 22, 2011 QuoteThe time when everyone learns to be an instructor should be during the course. Why are candidates expected to train on their own and show up to be evaluated? No where else that I know of is it done this way. For any other professional rating you go to a school to learn the trade. At the end of the course you are tested. AFFIRC is just show up and test. IMO this should be changed. Quote It's called Instructor Examiner not Instructor instructor for a reason~ Doctors and Lawyers get their training THEN go before an evaluation 'board' to certify. My son went to school two years to become an A&P, then comes the FAA exam to get licensed. From Pilots to Pirates to insurance agents & welders, there are MANY jobs that you train for 'on your own' so to speak, before getting the 'OK' from a licensing organization to continue on without the oversight. +1 I get SO tired of people showing for for a rating course expecting to be spoon-fed most of the course. Before you show up, maybe a candidate should be expected to; 1. Have actually read the IRM and the SIM 2.Have prepared lesson plans (which may need to be corrected) for the catagories they know in advance they have to teach. 3.Have sat in and assisted with more than the basic requirements so that they actually have a fair understanding of the skills and information they will need to exercise an instructional rating. An IRC is a 3 day affair, including eval dives and teaching eval sessions. Only AFF generally offers a pre-course (4-5 days).This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deisel 35 #56 April 22, 2011 No arguments about showing up prepared. Yes people that want to teach should do those things that prepare them to be good teachers. But one can never know a persons motivations. Personally, I sat through so many first jump courses that I could teach it in my sleep. I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites floormonkey 0 #57 April 22, 2011 My AFFIRC included a precourse. I was at the course 8 days. I have yet to have a student put me through what my "graduation"/last eval jump was like...and I've had some students I'm pretty sure were trying to kill me. All the things you say should be taught were taught in the precourse. Sure, some people will go with the easier i/e, the same guys that looked for a blow off course in school. As far as allowing coaches on a nonrelease dive...I wouldn't have a coach on the other side of one of my jumps. The liability is too high if the student gets injured. Also, coaches haven't been taught spin stops, flipping over students, how to talk down a student on a radio, how to get a student of the plane in an emergency, and a host of other things even a freshly minted aff instructor has at least had some practice with or training for. And before you say "We'll train them", when? When they first get their rating at 200 jumps? or will you make a regulation that requires someone to train them on it when they get ready to do AFF? If you are treating a nonrelease dive as if a nonrated or lower skilled person can be on it, because you "only have to hold on," then you're going to get burned and you are part of the problem. All AFF jumps are about the student and can go to shit at any second. The student should not be put at extra risk so someone can "get some experience." Let the candidate take a precourse or buy some slots and get someone to teach him/her. To me, making that statement is tantamount to saying your student doesn't deserve the best you have available, and you are willing to take extra risks in an already dangerous sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #58 April 22, 2011 I do not want to derail this thread any more than I have done so already, if someone questions my integrety I will repsond, you know that and so do many others. I have had my rant in reply to someone giving me a stab in the ribs and your post that I am replying to here is obviously another designed to do the same. I will reply to your comments and will take on board any reply you may have but this is not going to turn into a tangent debate and an excuse for you to get me banned for standing up for myself... again. QuoteI've never seen one of your videos, ever, let alone commented on them to anyone. Must be aliens in your tinfoil hat, buddy. Identify a link to anywhere I've commented on one of your videos. You can't. QuoteAnyone who thinks AVC or AVCHD cams that "stick on" offer quality useful in any sort of professional use as a primary is simply showing ignorance. It's like the dude that gets terribly excited about how his DSLR is now an "HD CAMCORDER." That was you talkng about using Go Pro's for use in commercial tandem videos, I was using a go pro for handicam and now I have discovered that 1080p mode is a similar width as a cx100 with a 0.3 lens, I use them for outside video too, I use a fibre optic cable for a cam eye... I bet we will be using DSLRs for outside video as soon as the photos are full quality, (and yes I am excited about that). So you called me ignorant, as I use these professionally. QuoteQuote You call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. You call it "creative" and we call it a lie and that's what it is, there is no getting around that. That is a dig in the ribs, I am not falling for it, you are just trying to arc me up, I find those comments totally insulting and unprofessional. Grow up a little will ya. Now back to the subject, instructing and examining instructors...."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alabamaskydiver 0 #59 April 22, 2011 QuoteBram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual. The system is broken since it is going to allow an "Instructor" like Jeff Fincher, who has no regard for the Students Safety, BSR's or FAR's, to be an I/E. These are documented. USPA has had to get involved, the FAA is watching him as a Senior Instructor at a TN DZ. This is who WE the MEMBERS of USPA are going to allow USPA's BOD to endorse as an I/E? This will be another Kip Lohmiller type set up. And look how well that has worked out! What does UPT think about this? The system needs to be more restrictive and is an I/E loses his I ratings for infractions the I/E rating go as well and don't come back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sky20yrs 0 #60 April 22, 2011 I'm no longer an instructor, but was for over 14 years. I will say I was really surprised to see how easy the AFF course had become when I sat through one, by comparison to early-mid 90s. Lots of coddling, hard to tell when it was one of the many practice jumps versus an eval dive. I know of more than one person that I felt couldn't have possibly had the skills to do it yet get a rating (folks I jumped with regularly), and sure enough, they got the rating, and then I saw vids of them posted where they were far away from a stable student later. No where close enough to help if it had gone bad. I guess we just hope they get lucky til the build up the skills now. And coaches, yeah. There are some great ones, no doubt, but there are some that cannot even stay close enough to really fly with a student, or have the awareness to give good feedback. I feel like those students are getting ripped off sometimes. Not to mention, it seems I still often have to teach them to track decently at all, and do very basic stuff when they start doing organized jumps with me. I'm happy to help them learn, I miss teaching, but it's hard to understand why the skill sets aren't better after all the coaching jumps. Just my opinion. I really hope they get back to making the AFF rating harder to get one day, ensure folks really have the good flying skills they should to do AFF. I mean when there is a 100% pass rate at every coach and AFF course I've seen...it does make me wonder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #61 April 22, 2011 Quote I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated. What happens if the "non-release skydive" becomes a "have to release one side" due to exit problems? A few years ago, one DZ was doing exactly this, and exactly that occurred. The coach was the one to release, but it just as easily could have been main side releasing. Do you want a coach on someone's first or second skydive? There are many licensed skydivers to work with/learn from that can "play student" for would-be candidates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites samlee 0 #62 April 22, 2011 Maybe what is needed in the USPA is a system similar to what we have in the UK, where someone wanting to be an AFF Instructor has to first become a Basic Instructor (AFF BI) and be an active BI for at least 6 months. The BI course can be up to a week long in itself. As a BI, they can teach groundschools (supervised), and jump with students beyond the instructor jumps (i.e. basically be a coach) but not actually do student jumps. During this time they also do lots of practice jumps with instructors and instructor examiners, and have a proficiency card with certain skills they have to have demonstrated. Between 6 months and a year after getting their AFF BI rating, they then attend a full AFFI course (normally one weekend) on which the 5 evaluation jumps are performed, and needs to be signed off by TWO Instructor Examiners. AFF(B)I's also need at least 1000 jumps, 10 hours freefall, and a Canopy Handling coach. Not only does the course require commitment and determination (thus weeding out those people that aren't actually that interested in being a good instructor), but it means that by the time they do their actual AFFI course they have already got at least 6 months experience of teaching groundschools, they know the syllabus really well, they have done the practice jumps and have been taught the necessary skills, and generally they will be a much better all round instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ufk22 32 #63 April 22, 2011 QuoteNo arguments about showing up prepared. Yes people that want to teach should do those things that prepare them to be good teachers. But one can never know a persons motivations. Quote That's why I can't judge or use motivations to decide whether or not to issue a rating. If a candidate can do everything USPA says they need to do to pass the course, I must issue them a rating no matter their perceived motivation. If they can't, all the good intentions in the world shouldn't get them the rating Personally, I sat through so many first jump courses that I could teach it in my sleep. Not a personal attack, but I've watched plenty of rated I's and Coaches do just that. I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated. This is crazy. While there may well be a few coaches that MIGHT be able to do this, most coaches can't. Just watching the flying skills of people the first day vs the last day of an AFF precourse, then imagine them doing this with absolutely no training. The second (reserve side) instructor is there for a reason, if the student needs them, not to educate the instructor.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peek 20 #64 April 22, 2011 QuoteIn response to: (I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives.) ufk22 said : This is crazy. Oh, it gets crazier than that! I have heard of people thinking that a person unrated for AFF can go along (have harness holds) on a single instructor AFF jump because, after all, the second instructor is not really needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deisel 35 #65 April 22, 2011 Obviously Ive failed to explain myself here * I do not believe that coaches as currently rated should be able to do AFF jumps. * Now that thats clear - what Im suggesting is something more along the lines of what was described as the UK version. How about we make a no shit coach course that teaches spin stops, roll overs, and all of that. From there, A/JM for about 6 months or so doing what is currently considered coaching. Then, when ready, see an I/E for your AFFI rating. The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #66 April 22, 2011 OR We can just keep the Coaches, as Coaches and bring the JM's and I's back in, as it was before we had the BIC to Coach and dissolve the JM changes! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,050 #67 April 22, 2011 Quote OR We can just keep the Coaches, as Coaches and bring the JM's and I's back in, as it was before we had the BIC to Coach and dissolve the JM changes! Matt... please don't try to inject logic into the damn program. We're trying to keep it on an emotional level. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deisel 35 #68 April 22, 2011 Before my time Matt! But speaking of which, has anyone ever pieced together the history of skydiving instruction? I already know the 'big blue arrow' type stuff that USPA puts out. I'd like to get the some raw details concerning the how and why the program has evolved the way it did. Someone must have thought that it was a good idea at the time. Id like to look at the logic behind the decision process.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #69 April 22, 2011 QuoteThis is crazy. While there may well be a few coaches that MIGHT be able to do this, most coaches can't. Just watching the flying skills of people the first day vs the last day of an AFF precourse, then imagine them doing this with absolutely no training. For sure, I am seeing people gettin USPA coach rating with 150 jumps, that is fucking rediculous! My suggestion is to move the pre requesate from whatever it is now to 500 jumps for coach and 1000 for tandem and AFF, 750 jumps for these rating if you have 200 jumps since coach rating, or similar. AFF has much more responsability when it comes to flying skill than tandem, why it is not treated this way is beyond me. There are too many dickheads out there doing tandems and AFF that have not had the chance to learn the required skills yet. they focus on the rating from when they get thier coach ticket, when they should be out there experiencing the sport and trying differetn disciplines. Either that or make the table of skills required much more advanced. I am aware the some select individuals are ready at the pre requesates that are currently in place under the USPA system but increasingly there are many that are not. We do need instructors, but there are way too many coaches out there that are not good at flying and people are getting ratings with far too little experience. I was one of them, I got my AFF rating in Australia at 350 jumps, I was nowhere near ready but was pressured into getting it, I could have had a tandem rating only months later... These numbers were made in the 80s, we need to look at the product of our decisions and adjust the prerequesates to a more suitable level."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fincher 0 #70 April 22, 2011 wow! you really hate me. LOL. Have i ever met you?....I dont think so. I have never been disciplined by the USPA....despite your many attempts to have it done. which is wierd and creepy seeing as how I dont know you. You surely have never seen me instruct, aside from some random bits of youtube videos that you apparently masterbate to. Where do you get the notion that I care nothing about students, BSR's and FAR's? I mean I have been on the fringe of them at times but I believe we all have at some point. Why would I not care about students? I am attached to them and I care about myself so therefor I care for them by proxy. Your statements are only founded in your wierd hatred and obsession over me based only on the fact that I instruct at a "skyride" DZ. (which by the way is simply an economic decision). I mind my own business and do my thing....Your childish attempts to bash me and continuous efforts to turn this thread about me(which was your original pyshco intent) is laughable and pathetic. As you see no one here is listening to you nor do they care to fuel, nuture, or join your banwagon of mental disorder. Arent you retired military or something? Is this really how you want to act? I expect this from a 16yr old but seriously.....for an adult its just sad. I would be more than glad to meet with you and discuss instructor ethics and techniques. That is the way grown ups do things. Until you have spent enough time around me personally to establish an intelligent assessment of my intstructor abilities you should refrain from your fairytales of my "danger" or "disrespect" for rules. P.S. I have never hurt a student in over 3000 tandems. I am the first to sit out in high winds. So your claim I am continuously dangerous is obviously in your demented imagination. I do not intend to get into a pissing match here because frankly it is a waste of my valuable time and nothing is to be achieved by it. If you would lide to meet and discuss these things then PM me. If not then dont be hateful while acting like a coward behind a keyboard with a anonymous profile. Thank you and God blessi'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FreeflyGoat 0 #71 April 23, 2011 +1 for Jeff _________________________ goat derka jerka bukkake jihad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #72 April 23, 2011 Are you the TM in these pictures he posted? If so, are the passengers in those pictures students or a licensed skydivers? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128564; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128565;Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alabamaskydiver 0 #73 April 23, 2011 Quotewow! you really hate me. LOL. Have i ever met you?....I dont think so. I have never been disciplined by the USPA....despite your many attempts to have it done. which is wierd and creepy seeing as how I dont know you. You surely have never seen me instruct, aside from some random bits of youtube videos that you apparently masterbate to. Where do you get the notion that I care nothing about students, BSR's and FAR's? I mean I have been on the fringe of them at times but I believe we all have at some point. Why would I not care about students? I am attached to them and I care about myself so therefor I care for them by proxy. Your statements are only founded in your wierd hatred and obsession over me based only on the fact that I instruct at a "skyride" DZ. (which by the way is simply an economic decision). I mind my own business and do my thing....Your childish attempts to bash me and continuous efforts to turn this thread about me(which was your original pyshco intent) is laughable and pathetic. As you see no one here is listening to you nor do they care to fuel, nuture, or join your banwagon of mental disorder. Arent you retired military or something? Is this really how you want to act? I expect this from a 16yr old but seriously.....for an adult its just sad. I would be more than glad to meet with you and discuss instructor ethics and techniques. That is the way grown ups do things. Until you have spent enough time around me personally to establish an intelligent assessment of my intstructor abilities you should refrain from your fairytales of my "danger" or "disrespect" for rules. P.S. I have never hurt a student in over 3000 tandems. I am the first to sit out in high winds. So your claim I am continuously dangerous is obviously in your demented imagination. I do not intend to get into a pissing match here because frankly it is a waste of my valuable time and nothing is to be achieved by it. If you would lide to meet and discuss these things then PM me. If not then dont be hateful while acting like a coward behind a keyboard with a anonymous profile. Thank you and God bless Here's a hurt student and this was after you guys cleaned up the albums and after you got the disciplinary letter from Vic Johnson. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #74 April 23, 2011 Is it a "Sham"? No, I do not think so. It can use some tweaks, but that is normal in a sport that is so "evolutionary" like ours. Coach standards have come up. But they are not expected to be 4-way medalists. Lets not confuse the types of Coaches out there. Staticline and IAD may not be the "In" thing in some areas, but they are still going strong. AFF is now easier to UNDERSTAND when it comes to the STANDARDS. The current system took away the "Ego's" we heard rumor of so much. Now, as to your actual agenda. Sure Jeff Fincher may not have been the best Candidate for an I/E rating in the PAST. Sure he was "Disciplined" (playing a semantics game here aren't you?) in the PAST. But maybe, as those are in the PAST he has learned a bit and is a better "Professional Skydiving Instructor" for it? So, lets give a bit of the benefit of the doubt to him and let him work a bit in the I/E field, maybe he will prove you wrong. Besides as an I/E he knows he is held to a higher standard and has three "Governing Bodies" watching him like all the rest of us. They are, for those who may be asking, the FAA, USPA and the Rig Manufacturer. They all have rules and standards, he met them and past the course, end of story. if any one of us I/E's makes a mistake any one of those three "Governing Bodies" can take action. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #75 April 24, 2011 Quote Here's a hurt student and this was after you guys cleaned up the albums and after you got the disciplinary letter from Vic Johnson. Busted! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rhys 0 #52 April 21, 2011 Quote If you want to admit to being a carnival ride operator, that's up to you. I own a skydiving dropzone, most of our customers are in town for one or two days and they are in New Zealand to see our beautiful country and while they are here they experience many different exciting activities. You call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. Nowdays people can try skydiving once, they are willing to pay for it and they are keen to experience it...once. There are many activities on offer, skydiving is just one of them, remember that. Most of the customers in NZ are one timers, or at lest while they are here, they hardly have time for anything other than the 5 minute briefing the jump and the ride back to the village, they are usually in a hurry to get to their glacier hike, helecopter ride, quad bikes, bungee jump... Things are different here. When we are cancelled for weather etc etc. peole cry because they cannot do their skydive here at our DZ, most are not interested in learning to skydive. We give them all the information they want if they are interested in learning and we are currently developing a larger landing area more suitable for students, our staff get free fun jumps, we will start doing students in the near future, we are planning on having a DC3 boogie (at a different location) and coupleing it with the New Zealand formation record, all our staff are sport skydivers, we are sponsoring our straff to go to events such as records and competitions... call it what you will but it seems you have a picture of what skydiving is about and that is it. Pull your head out of the sand, it is not the 80's anymore. QuoteWhen did I ever suggest that you treat the student unfairly (which is think is an apt description of making one feel like an idiot for not wantng to participate in the skydive)? Participation in the skydive can be as simple as being there, by being there thay are participating, some want more than that I know, bit for many simply being there is out of thier comfort zone. It is not a carnival ride it is an adventure tourism activity. Tandem Skydiving has evolved into a large industry that didin't exist 20 years ago, it has created a new facet to the industry and without tandem skydiving the sport would be in rapid decline. We wouldn't have as many turbine DZ's with great facilities and sport jumpers would b paying US$50 a ticket. Our dz was a C180 operation 12 months ago, a C185 operation 5 months ago and now we are a turbine porter operation giving free sport skydives to those that work here and offering slots to those that wish to skydive here... Without the carnies bro, our sport would be almost dead, that is an oil and $$$ thing, but tandems and the bucket listers have saved our sport. In some places the sport is shunned for the money, but here that is not the case. Give them a smile a warm welcome and show them a good time and hey.... maybe 3% of them may learn to skydive... QuoteI think the tone of my whole post was one of giving the student more than they expect. In some cases it's providing the service of training, and the experience of being an active part of the jump. In other cases it's being professional enough to understand that not everyone has the desire to participate in the jump. There you go, that is a U Turn but you are getting there. QuoteEven if the chance of them coming back is nil, the 'bucket listers' deserve the consideration of understanding all of their options when it comes to their jump. After all, it they're only going to jump once, you can't put off things like pulling a 'ripcord' until the next jump. What I have found with those that wish to pull the cord, is that it can produce an undue anxiety, while taking away from the experience, they are so worried about failure that they forget to enjoy the rest of it. If that is what they wanted out of the skydive... cool. but if they came to experienvce the view and/or the sensation of freefall, then just let them do that! I have seen some pull the release at altitude and we jump from 18k, I don't want to be under parachute at 18k. That is why (here) it is strictly for those that have experienced a skydive before. QuoteIf you're going to choose for them, before even offering, in my opinion that's taking away their right to make up their own minds, and poor customer service on your part. We advertise what we offer them, and we give them a great experience. Here are some reviews, read them and decide what you feel they placed importance on... Quote I went to Franz Josef to see the glacier, bit found myself being talked into doing a skydive, my friend said it would be the most amazing experience I would ever have....AND IT WAS!!! I was scared out of my brain but Rhys made me feel 100% safe and comfortable! I just wish I had gone higher that 12,000 feet! Everyone at Skydive Franz are wonderful! I will be telling ALL MY FRIENDS!! If I can do it, anyone can do it!!! - DOOOOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTT!!!! I JUMPED OUT OF A PLANE FROM 18,000ft!!!!! I still cant believe it!!! What an AMAZING experience!!!! Everyone at SKYDIVE Franz are super friendly and super professional! I am SO glad I did the highest jump! and even more glad I decided to get a DVD! My only piece of advice is jump as high as you can and get some sort of footage!! AMAZING!!!! Excellent, lady instructor, very relaxed. best views in NZ, highest jump in NZ 18,000ft. WOW! what an amazing experience. I jumped from 18,000ft Twice in one day. Rhys, leigh nd the team were absolutely spot on, and I will definately go back for another jump if I get back to New Zealand. The guys (and girls) make me feel very at ease and really looked after me for the day as I had never jumped before. Also, the scenery was just unbelieveable. we could see the lakes on the eastern side of mount cook just before we jumped! I can't recommend these guys highly enough. I did an 18.000 ft. skydive with this company a few days ago. They're really professional and concerned about safety and tell you everything you have to know for a safe jump and landing. As they are a smaller company they're more personal than others (I did an other skydive at lake taupo, so I can compare it) and "faster": no useless waiting for ages between pick-up in town and going in the air! Good organisation and friendly staff make it a 10/10 experience. Great jump! And everyone knows the glaciers make a great background for a jump out of an airplane! What an experience! I definitely give these guys a 10/10. They were professional and safety conscious, but at the same time were really friendly & made sure that I was having fun before, during and after the jump. The views on the way up and the way down were amazing, and at 18,000 feet, seeing the top of the tallest mountain in NZ was really something! I definitely recommend getting the photo/film package - they're both really high quality and are a great way to show off your experience. Thanks so much to everyone at Skydive Franz for turning me into an adrenaline junkie! :D fantastic professional and fun company. what an amazing and gorgeous experience. i wanted to head straight back up again. we had a small bit of cloud cover which i was worried would affect the pictures but it didn't at all, in fact i think it made the pictures even better. the visibility of the glaciers was incredible you could even see the tears of the avalanche maiden! I went for the 18,000ft jump and got free fall photographer and dvd and was so impressed. definitely worth the money. The quality was unreal. Now I have people Like you stating that we are carnies that could care less about what our customers Really want, and i have people Like DSE telling me that our video products are less than what is acceptable Because we don't use vegas or sony cameras), yet I have nothing but great reviws from our customers. Did you notice the importance placed on the view???? would you rather these people were staring at an alti the whole time... things are different here, it is not a dusty dessert with nothing to look at, most of our customers come for the view. So we give it to them."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #53 April 21, 2011 QuoteThe *worst* candidates (IMO) are those that freefly their asses off, then show up to a coach or AFFI course expecting to learn the requisite belly skills. The worst are those that have a high opinion of themelves, cannot fly very well at all, be it on their belly or head, and cannot fly a parachute to save themselves. they want to be an instructor for the status. They are out there..."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #54 April 21, 2011 QuoteReally want, and i have people Like DSE telling me that our video products are less than what is acceptable Because we don't use vegas or sony cameras), yet I have nothing but great reviws from our customers I've never seen one of your videos, ever, let alone commented on them to anyone. Must be aliens in your tinfoil hat, buddy. Identify a link to anywhere I've commented on one of your videos. You can't. QuoteYou call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. You call it "creative" and we call it a lie and that's what it is, there is no getting around that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #55 April 22, 2011 QuoteThe time when everyone learns to be an instructor should be during the course. Why are candidates expected to train on their own and show up to be evaluated? No where else that I know of is it done this way. For any other professional rating you go to a school to learn the trade. At the end of the course you are tested. AFFIRC is just show up and test. IMO this should be changed. Quote It's called Instructor Examiner not Instructor instructor for a reason~ Doctors and Lawyers get their training THEN go before an evaluation 'board' to certify. My son went to school two years to become an A&P, then comes the FAA exam to get licensed. From Pilots to Pirates to insurance agents & welders, there are MANY jobs that you train for 'on your own' so to speak, before getting the 'OK' from a licensing organization to continue on without the oversight. +1 I get SO tired of people showing for for a rating course expecting to be spoon-fed most of the course. Before you show up, maybe a candidate should be expected to; 1. Have actually read the IRM and the SIM 2.Have prepared lesson plans (which may need to be corrected) for the catagories they know in advance they have to teach. 3.Have sat in and assisted with more than the basic requirements so that they actually have a fair understanding of the skills and information they will need to exercise an instructional rating. An IRC is a 3 day affair, including eval dives and teaching eval sessions. Only AFF generally offers a pre-course (4-5 days).This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deisel 35 #56 April 22, 2011 No arguments about showing up prepared. Yes people that want to teach should do those things that prepare them to be good teachers. But one can never know a persons motivations. Personally, I sat through so many first jump courses that I could teach it in my sleep. I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites floormonkey 0 #57 April 22, 2011 My AFFIRC included a precourse. I was at the course 8 days. I have yet to have a student put me through what my "graduation"/last eval jump was like...and I've had some students I'm pretty sure were trying to kill me. All the things you say should be taught were taught in the precourse. Sure, some people will go with the easier i/e, the same guys that looked for a blow off course in school. As far as allowing coaches on a nonrelease dive...I wouldn't have a coach on the other side of one of my jumps. The liability is too high if the student gets injured. Also, coaches haven't been taught spin stops, flipping over students, how to talk down a student on a radio, how to get a student of the plane in an emergency, and a host of other things even a freshly minted aff instructor has at least had some practice with or training for. And before you say "We'll train them", when? When they first get their rating at 200 jumps? or will you make a regulation that requires someone to train them on it when they get ready to do AFF? If you are treating a nonrelease dive as if a nonrated or lower skilled person can be on it, because you "only have to hold on," then you're going to get burned and you are part of the problem. All AFF jumps are about the student and can go to shit at any second. The student should not be put at extra risk so someone can "get some experience." Let the candidate take a precourse or buy some slots and get someone to teach him/her. To me, making that statement is tantamount to saying your student doesn't deserve the best you have available, and you are willing to take extra risks in an already dangerous sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #58 April 22, 2011 I do not want to derail this thread any more than I have done so already, if someone questions my integrety I will repsond, you know that and so do many others. I have had my rant in reply to someone giving me a stab in the ribs and your post that I am replying to here is obviously another designed to do the same. I will reply to your comments and will take on board any reply you may have but this is not going to turn into a tangent debate and an excuse for you to get me banned for standing up for myself... again. QuoteI've never seen one of your videos, ever, let alone commented on them to anyone. Must be aliens in your tinfoil hat, buddy. Identify a link to anywhere I've commented on one of your videos. You can't. QuoteAnyone who thinks AVC or AVCHD cams that "stick on" offer quality useful in any sort of professional use as a primary is simply showing ignorance. It's like the dude that gets terribly excited about how his DSLR is now an "HD CAMCORDER." That was you talkng about using Go Pro's for use in commercial tandem videos, I was using a go pro for handicam and now I have discovered that 1080p mode is a similar width as a cx100 with a 0.3 lens, I use them for outside video too, I use a fibre optic cable for a cam eye... I bet we will be using DSLRs for outside video as soon as the photos are full quality, (and yes I am excited about that). So you called me ignorant, as I use these professionally. QuoteQuote You call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. You call it "creative" and we call it a lie and that's what it is, there is no getting around that. That is a dig in the ribs, I am not falling for it, you are just trying to arc me up, I find those comments totally insulting and unprofessional. Grow up a little will ya. Now back to the subject, instructing and examining instructors...."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alabamaskydiver 0 #59 April 22, 2011 QuoteBram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual. The system is broken since it is going to allow an "Instructor" like Jeff Fincher, who has no regard for the Students Safety, BSR's or FAR's, to be an I/E. These are documented. USPA has had to get involved, the FAA is watching him as a Senior Instructor at a TN DZ. This is who WE the MEMBERS of USPA are going to allow USPA's BOD to endorse as an I/E? This will be another Kip Lohmiller type set up. And look how well that has worked out! What does UPT think about this? The system needs to be more restrictive and is an I/E loses his I ratings for infractions the I/E rating go as well and don't come back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sky20yrs 0 #60 April 22, 2011 I'm no longer an instructor, but was for over 14 years. I will say I was really surprised to see how easy the AFF course had become when I sat through one, by comparison to early-mid 90s. Lots of coddling, hard to tell when it was one of the many practice jumps versus an eval dive. I know of more than one person that I felt couldn't have possibly had the skills to do it yet get a rating (folks I jumped with regularly), and sure enough, they got the rating, and then I saw vids of them posted where they were far away from a stable student later. No where close enough to help if it had gone bad. I guess we just hope they get lucky til the build up the skills now. And coaches, yeah. There are some great ones, no doubt, but there are some that cannot even stay close enough to really fly with a student, or have the awareness to give good feedback. I feel like those students are getting ripped off sometimes. Not to mention, it seems I still often have to teach them to track decently at all, and do very basic stuff when they start doing organized jumps with me. I'm happy to help them learn, I miss teaching, but it's hard to understand why the skill sets aren't better after all the coaching jumps. Just my opinion. I really hope they get back to making the AFF rating harder to get one day, ensure folks really have the good flying skills they should to do AFF. I mean when there is a 100% pass rate at every coach and AFF course I've seen...it does make me wonder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #61 April 22, 2011 Quote I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated. What happens if the "non-release skydive" becomes a "have to release one side" due to exit problems? A few years ago, one DZ was doing exactly this, and exactly that occurred. The coach was the one to release, but it just as easily could have been main side releasing. Do you want a coach on someone's first or second skydive? There are many licensed skydivers to work with/learn from that can "play student" for would-be candidates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites samlee 0 #62 April 22, 2011 Maybe what is needed in the USPA is a system similar to what we have in the UK, where someone wanting to be an AFF Instructor has to first become a Basic Instructor (AFF BI) and be an active BI for at least 6 months. The BI course can be up to a week long in itself. As a BI, they can teach groundschools (supervised), and jump with students beyond the instructor jumps (i.e. basically be a coach) but not actually do student jumps. During this time they also do lots of practice jumps with instructors and instructor examiners, and have a proficiency card with certain skills they have to have demonstrated. Between 6 months and a year after getting their AFF BI rating, they then attend a full AFFI course (normally one weekend) on which the 5 evaluation jumps are performed, and needs to be signed off by TWO Instructor Examiners. AFF(B)I's also need at least 1000 jumps, 10 hours freefall, and a Canopy Handling coach. Not only does the course require commitment and determination (thus weeding out those people that aren't actually that interested in being a good instructor), but it means that by the time they do their actual AFFI course they have already got at least 6 months experience of teaching groundschools, they know the syllabus really well, they have done the practice jumps and have been taught the necessary skills, and generally they will be a much better all round instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ufk22 32 #63 April 22, 2011 QuoteNo arguments about showing up prepared. Yes people that want to teach should do those things that prepare them to be good teachers. But one can never know a persons motivations. Quote That's why I can't judge or use motivations to decide whether or not to issue a rating. If a candidate can do everything USPA says they need to do to pass the course, I must issue them a rating no matter their perceived motivation. If they can't, all the good intentions in the world shouldn't get them the rating Personally, I sat through so many first jump courses that I could teach it in my sleep. Not a personal attack, but I've watched plenty of rated I's and Coaches do just that. I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated. This is crazy. While there may well be a few coaches that MIGHT be able to do this, most coaches can't. Just watching the flying skills of people the first day vs the last day of an AFF precourse, then imagine them doing this with absolutely no training. The second (reserve side) instructor is there for a reason, if the student needs them, not to educate the instructor.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peek 20 #64 April 22, 2011 QuoteIn response to: (I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives.) ufk22 said : This is crazy. Oh, it gets crazier than that! I have heard of people thinking that a person unrated for AFF can go along (have harness holds) on a single instructor AFF jump because, after all, the second instructor is not really needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deisel 35 #65 April 22, 2011 Obviously Ive failed to explain myself here * I do not believe that coaches as currently rated should be able to do AFF jumps. * Now that thats clear - what Im suggesting is something more along the lines of what was described as the UK version. How about we make a no shit coach course that teaches spin stops, roll overs, and all of that. From there, A/JM for about 6 months or so doing what is currently considered coaching. Then, when ready, see an I/E for your AFFI rating. The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #66 April 22, 2011 OR We can just keep the Coaches, as Coaches and bring the JM's and I's back in, as it was before we had the BIC to Coach and dissolve the JM changes! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,050 #67 April 22, 2011 Quote OR We can just keep the Coaches, as Coaches and bring the JM's and I's back in, as it was before we had the BIC to Coach and dissolve the JM changes! Matt... please don't try to inject logic into the damn program. We're trying to keep it on an emotional level. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deisel 35 #68 April 22, 2011 Before my time Matt! But speaking of which, has anyone ever pieced together the history of skydiving instruction? I already know the 'big blue arrow' type stuff that USPA puts out. I'd like to get the some raw details concerning the how and why the program has evolved the way it did. Someone must have thought that it was a good idea at the time. Id like to look at the logic behind the decision process.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #69 April 22, 2011 QuoteThis is crazy. While there may well be a few coaches that MIGHT be able to do this, most coaches can't. Just watching the flying skills of people the first day vs the last day of an AFF precourse, then imagine them doing this with absolutely no training. For sure, I am seeing people gettin USPA coach rating with 150 jumps, that is fucking rediculous! My suggestion is to move the pre requesate from whatever it is now to 500 jumps for coach and 1000 for tandem and AFF, 750 jumps for these rating if you have 200 jumps since coach rating, or similar. AFF has much more responsability when it comes to flying skill than tandem, why it is not treated this way is beyond me. There are too many dickheads out there doing tandems and AFF that have not had the chance to learn the required skills yet. they focus on the rating from when they get thier coach ticket, when they should be out there experiencing the sport and trying differetn disciplines. Either that or make the table of skills required much more advanced. I am aware the some select individuals are ready at the pre requesates that are currently in place under the USPA system but increasingly there are many that are not. We do need instructors, but there are way too many coaches out there that are not good at flying and people are getting ratings with far too little experience. I was one of them, I got my AFF rating in Australia at 350 jumps, I was nowhere near ready but was pressured into getting it, I could have had a tandem rating only months later... These numbers were made in the 80s, we need to look at the product of our decisions and adjust the prerequesates to a more suitable level."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fincher 0 #70 April 22, 2011 wow! you really hate me. LOL. Have i ever met you?....I dont think so. I have never been disciplined by the USPA....despite your many attempts to have it done. which is wierd and creepy seeing as how I dont know you. You surely have never seen me instruct, aside from some random bits of youtube videos that you apparently masterbate to. Where do you get the notion that I care nothing about students, BSR's and FAR's? I mean I have been on the fringe of them at times but I believe we all have at some point. Why would I not care about students? I am attached to them and I care about myself so therefor I care for them by proxy. Your statements are only founded in your wierd hatred and obsession over me based only on the fact that I instruct at a "skyride" DZ. (which by the way is simply an economic decision). I mind my own business and do my thing....Your childish attempts to bash me and continuous efforts to turn this thread about me(which was your original pyshco intent) is laughable and pathetic. As you see no one here is listening to you nor do they care to fuel, nuture, or join your banwagon of mental disorder. Arent you retired military or something? Is this really how you want to act? I expect this from a 16yr old but seriously.....for an adult its just sad. I would be more than glad to meet with you and discuss instructor ethics and techniques. That is the way grown ups do things. Until you have spent enough time around me personally to establish an intelligent assessment of my intstructor abilities you should refrain from your fairytales of my "danger" or "disrespect" for rules. P.S. I have never hurt a student in over 3000 tandems. I am the first to sit out in high winds. So your claim I am continuously dangerous is obviously in your demented imagination. I do not intend to get into a pissing match here because frankly it is a waste of my valuable time and nothing is to be achieved by it. If you would lide to meet and discuss these things then PM me. If not then dont be hateful while acting like a coward behind a keyboard with a anonymous profile. Thank you and God blessi'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FreeflyGoat 0 #71 April 23, 2011 +1 for Jeff _________________________ goat derka jerka bukkake jihad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #72 April 23, 2011 Are you the TM in these pictures he posted? If so, are the passengers in those pictures students or a licensed skydivers? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128564; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128565;Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alabamaskydiver 0 #73 April 23, 2011 Quotewow! you really hate me. LOL. Have i ever met you?....I dont think so. I have never been disciplined by the USPA....despite your many attempts to have it done. which is wierd and creepy seeing as how I dont know you. You surely have never seen me instruct, aside from some random bits of youtube videos that you apparently masterbate to. Where do you get the notion that I care nothing about students, BSR's and FAR's? I mean I have been on the fringe of them at times but I believe we all have at some point. Why would I not care about students? I am attached to them and I care about myself so therefor I care for them by proxy. Your statements are only founded in your wierd hatred and obsession over me based only on the fact that I instruct at a "skyride" DZ. (which by the way is simply an economic decision). I mind my own business and do my thing....Your childish attempts to bash me and continuous efforts to turn this thread about me(which was your original pyshco intent) is laughable and pathetic. As you see no one here is listening to you nor do they care to fuel, nuture, or join your banwagon of mental disorder. Arent you retired military or something? Is this really how you want to act? I expect this from a 16yr old but seriously.....for an adult its just sad. I would be more than glad to meet with you and discuss instructor ethics and techniques. That is the way grown ups do things. Until you have spent enough time around me personally to establish an intelligent assessment of my intstructor abilities you should refrain from your fairytales of my "danger" or "disrespect" for rules. P.S. I have never hurt a student in over 3000 tandems. I am the first to sit out in high winds. So your claim I am continuously dangerous is obviously in your demented imagination. I do not intend to get into a pissing match here because frankly it is a waste of my valuable time and nothing is to be achieved by it. If you would lide to meet and discuss these things then PM me. If not then dont be hateful while acting like a coward behind a keyboard with a anonymous profile. Thank you and God bless Here's a hurt student and this was after you guys cleaned up the albums and after you got the disciplinary letter from Vic Johnson. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #74 April 23, 2011 Is it a "Sham"? No, I do not think so. It can use some tweaks, but that is normal in a sport that is so "evolutionary" like ours. Coach standards have come up. But they are not expected to be 4-way medalists. Lets not confuse the types of Coaches out there. Staticline and IAD may not be the "In" thing in some areas, but they are still going strong. AFF is now easier to UNDERSTAND when it comes to the STANDARDS. The current system took away the "Ego's" we heard rumor of so much. Now, as to your actual agenda. Sure Jeff Fincher may not have been the best Candidate for an I/E rating in the PAST. Sure he was "Disciplined" (playing a semantics game here aren't you?) in the PAST. But maybe, as those are in the PAST he has learned a bit and is a better "Professional Skydiving Instructor" for it? So, lets give a bit of the benefit of the doubt to him and let him work a bit in the I/E field, maybe he will prove you wrong. Besides as an I/E he knows he is held to a higher standard and has three "Governing Bodies" watching him like all the rest of us. They are, for those who may be asking, the FAA, USPA and the Rig Manufacturer. They all have rules and standards, he met them and past the course, end of story. if any one of us I/E's makes a mistake any one of those three "Governing Bodies" can take action. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #75 April 24, 2011 Quote Here's a hurt student and this was after you guys cleaned up the albums and after you got the disciplinary letter from Vic Johnson. Busted! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Deisel 35 #56 April 22, 2011 No arguments about showing up prepared. Yes people that want to teach should do those things that prepare them to be good teachers. But one can never know a persons motivations. Personally, I sat through so many first jump courses that I could teach it in my sleep. I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #57 April 22, 2011 My AFFIRC included a precourse. I was at the course 8 days. I have yet to have a student put me through what my "graduation"/last eval jump was like...and I've had some students I'm pretty sure were trying to kill me. All the things you say should be taught were taught in the precourse. Sure, some people will go with the easier i/e, the same guys that looked for a blow off course in school. As far as allowing coaches on a nonrelease dive...I wouldn't have a coach on the other side of one of my jumps. The liability is too high if the student gets injured. Also, coaches haven't been taught spin stops, flipping over students, how to talk down a student on a radio, how to get a student of the plane in an emergency, and a host of other things even a freshly minted aff instructor has at least had some practice with or training for. And before you say "We'll train them", when? When they first get their rating at 200 jumps? or will you make a regulation that requires someone to train them on it when they get ready to do AFF? If you are treating a nonrelease dive as if a nonrated or lower skilled person can be on it, because you "only have to hold on," then you're going to get burned and you are part of the problem. All AFF jumps are about the student and can go to shit at any second. The student should not be put at extra risk so someone can "get some experience." Let the candidate take a precourse or buy some slots and get someone to teach him/her. To me, making that statement is tantamount to saying your student doesn't deserve the best you have available, and you are willing to take extra risks in an already dangerous sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #58 April 22, 2011 I do not want to derail this thread any more than I have done so already, if someone questions my integrety I will repsond, you know that and so do many others. I have had my rant in reply to someone giving me a stab in the ribs and your post that I am replying to here is obviously another designed to do the same. I will reply to your comments and will take on board any reply you may have but this is not going to turn into a tangent debate and an excuse for you to get me banned for standing up for myself... again. QuoteI've never seen one of your videos, ever, let alone commented on them to anyone. Must be aliens in your tinfoil hat, buddy. Identify a link to anywhere I've commented on one of your videos. You can't. QuoteAnyone who thinks AVC or AVCHD cams that "stick on" offer quality useful in any sort of professional use as a primary is simply showing ignorance. It's like the dude that gets terribly excited about how his DSLR is now an "HD CAMCORDER." That was you talkng about using Go Pro's for use in commercial tandem videos, I was using a go pro for handicam and now I have discovered that 1080p mode is a similar width as a cx100 with a 0.3 lens, I use them for outside video too, I use a fibre optic cable for a cam eye... I bet we will be using DSLRs for outside video as soon as the photos are full quality, (and yes I am excited about that). So you called me ignorant, as I use these professionally. QuoteQuote You call it a carnival ride, we call it a skydive and that is what it is, there is no getting around that. You call it "creative" and we call it a lie and that's what it is, there is no getting around that. That is a dig in the ribs, I am not falling for it, you are just trying to arc me up, I find those comments totally insulting and unprofessional. Grow up a little will ya. Now back to the subject, instructing and examining instructors...."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alabamaskydiver 0 #59 April 22, 2011 QuoteBram Clement is an excellent I/E and I think making a post about people not being qualified to hold an I/E rating and then posting a picture of him even if he's not your intended "target" is unfair and unethical. It's clear to me that you make a post slamming the whole I/E program when you are really targeting an individual. The system is broken since it is going to allow an "Instructor" like Jeff Fincher, who has no regard for the Students Safety, BSR's or FAR's, to be an I/E. These are documented. USPA has had to get involved, the FAA is watching him as a Senior Instructor at a TN DZ. This is who WE the MEMBERS of USPA are going to allow USPA's BOD to endorse as an I/E? This will be another Kip Lohmiller type set up. And look how well that has worked out! What does UPT think about this? The system needs to be more restrictive and is an I/E loses his I ratings for infractions the I/E rating go as well and don't come back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sky20yrs 0 #60 April 22, 2011 I'm no longer an instructor, but was for over 14 years. I will say I was really surprised to see how easy the AFF course had become when I sat through one, by comparison to early-mid 90s. Lots of coddling, hard to tell when it was one of the many practice jumps versus an eval dive. I know of more than one person that I felt couldn't have possibly had the skills to do it yet get a rating (folks I jumped with regularly), and sure enough, they got the rating, and then I saw vids of them posted where they were far away from a stable student later. No where close enough to help if it had gone bad. I guess we just hope they get lucky til the build up the skills now. And coaches, yeah. There are some great ones, no doubt, but there are some that cannot even stay close enough to really fly with a student, or have the awareness to give good feedback. I feel like those students are getting ripped off sometimes. Not to mention, it seems I still often have to teach them to track decently at all, and do very basic stuff when they start doing organized jumps with me. I'm happy to help them learn, I miss teaching, but it's hard to understand why the skill sets aren't better after all the coaching jumps. Just my opinion. I really hope they get back to making the AFF rating harder to get one day, ensure folks really have the good flying skills they should to do AFF. I mean when there is a 100% pass rate at every coach and AFF course I've seen...it does make me wonder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #61 April 22, 2011 Quote I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated. What happens if the "non-release skydive" becomes a "have to release one side" due to exit problems? A few years ago, one DZ was doing exactly this, and exactly that occurred. The coach was the one to release, but it just as easily could have been main side releasing. Do you want a coach on someone's first or second skydive? There are many licensed skydivers to work with/learn from that can "play student" for would-be candidates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samlee 0 #62 April 22, 2011 Maybe what is needed in the USPA is a system similar to what we have in the UK, where someone wanting to be an AFF Instructor has to first become a Basic Instructor (AFF BI) and be an active BI for at least 6 months. The BI course can be up to a week long in itself. As a BI, they can teach groundschools (supervised), and jump with students beyond the instructor jumps (i.e. basically be a coach) but not actually do student jumps. During this time they also do lots of practice jumps with instructors and instructor examiners, and have a proficiency card with certain skills they have to have demonstrated. Between 6 months and a year after getting their AFF BI rating, they then attend a full AFFI course (normally one weekend) on which the 5 evaluation jumps are performed, and needs to be signed off by TWO Instructor Examiners. AFF(B)I's also need at least 1000 jumps, 10 hours freefall, and a Canopy Handling coach. Not only does the course require commitment and determination (thus weeding out those people that aren't actually that interested in being a good instructor), but it means that by the time they do their actual AFFI course they have already got at least 6 months experience of teaching groundschools, they know the syllabus really well, they have done the practice jumps and have been taught the necessary skills, and generally they will be a much better all round instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #63 April 22, 2011 QuoteNo arguments about showing up prepared. Yes people that want to teach should do those things that prepare them to be good teachers. But one can never know a persons motivations. Quote That's why I can't judge or use motivations to decide whether or not to issue a rating. If a candidate can do everything USPA says they need to do to pass the course, I must issue them a rating no matter their perceived motivation. If they can't, all the good intentions in the world shouldn't get them the rating Personally, I sat through so many first jump courses that I could teach it in my sleep. Not a personal attack, but I've watched plenty of rated I's and Coaches do just that. I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives. If the coach program is truly intended to be the proving ground for soon to be AFFIs we should treat it that way. Make it a probationary period with a minimum number of assist jumps over a period of time. Require it prior to going to the course and I believe that the 'learn it at the evaluation' thought process get eliminated. This is crazy. While there may well be a few coaches that MIGHT be able to do this, most coaches can't. Just watching the flying skills of people the first day vs the last day of an AFF precourse, then imagine them doing this with absolutely no training. The second (reserve side) instructor is there for a reason, if the student needs them, not to educate the instructor.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #64 April 22, 2011 QuoteIn response to: (I think that USPA should allow coaches to fly reserve side on non release skydives.) ufk22 said : This is crazy. Oh, it gets crazier than that! I have heard of people thinking that a person unrated for AFF can go along (have harness holds) on a single instructor AFF jump because, after all, the second instructor is not really needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 35 #65 April 22, 2011 Obviously Ive failed to explain myself here * I do not believe that coaches as currently rated should be able to do AFF jumps. * Now that thats clear - what Im suggesting is something more along the lines of what was described as the UK version. How about we make a no shit coach course that teaches spin stops, roll overs, and all of that. From there, A/JM for about 6 months or so doing what is currently considered coaching. Then, when ready, see an I/E for your AFFI rating. The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #66 April 22, 2011 OR We can just keep the Coaches, as Coaches and bring the JM's and I's back in, as it was before we had the BIC to Coach and dissolve the JM changes! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,050 #67 April 22, 2011 Quote OR We can just keep the Coaches, as Coaches and bring the JM's and I's back in, as it was before we had the BIC to Coach and dissolve the JM changes! Matt... please don't try to inject logic into the damn program. We're trying to keep it on an emotional level. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 35 #68 April 22, 2011 Before my time Matt! But speaking of which, has anyone ever pieced together the history of skydiving instruction? I already know the 'big blue arrow' type stuff that USPA puts out. I'd like to get the some raw details concerning the how and why the program has evolved the way it did. Someone must have thought that it was a good idea at the time. Id like to look at the logic behind the decision process.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #69 April 22, 2011 QuoteThis is crazy. While there may well be a few coaches that MIGHT be able to do this, most coaches can't. Just watching the flying skills of people the first day vs the last day of an AFF precourse, then imagine them doing this with absolutely no training. For sure, I am seeing people gettin USPA coach rating with 150 jumps, that is fucking rediculous! My suggestion is to move the pre requesate from whatever it is now to 500 jumps for coach and 1000 for tandem and AFF, 750 jumps for these rating if you have 200 jumps since coach rating, or similar. AFF has much more responsability when it comes to flying skill than tandem, why it is not treated this way is beyond me. There are too many dickheads out there doing tandems and AFF that have not had the chance to learn the required skills yet. they focus on the rating from when they get thier coach ticket, when they should be out there experiencing the sport and trying differetn disciplines. Either that or make the table of skills required much more advanced. I am aware the some select individuals are ready at the pre requesates that are currently in place under the USPA system but increasingly there are many that are not. We do need instructors, but there are way too many coaches out there that are not good at flying and people are getting ratings with far too little experience. I was one of them, I got my AFF rating in Australia at 350 jumps, I was nowhere near ready but was pressured into getting it, I could have had a tandem rating only months later... These numbers were made in the 80s, we need to look at the product of our decisions and adjust the prerequesates to a more suitable level."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fincher 0 #70 April 22, 2011 wow! you really hate me. LOL. Have i ever met you?....I dont think so. I have never been disciplined by the USPA....despite your many attempts to have it done. which is wierd and creepy seeing as how I dont know you. You surely have never seen me instruct, aside from some random bits of youtube videos that you apparently masterbate to. Where do you get the notion that I care nothing about students, BSR's and FAR's? I mean I have been on the fringe of them at times but I believe we all have at some point. Why would I not care about students? I am attached to them and I care about myself so therefor I care for them by proxy. Your statements are only founded in your wierd hatred and obsession over me based only on the fact that I instruct at a "skyride" DZ. (which by the way is simply an economic decision). I mind my own business and do my thing....Your childish attempts to bash me and continuous efforts to turn this thread about me(which was your original pyshco intent) is laughable and pathetic. As you see no one here is listening to you nor do they care to fuel, nuture, or join your banwagon of mental disorder. Arent you retired military or something? Is this really how you want to act? I expect this from a 16yr old but seriously.....for an adult its just sad. I would be more than glad to meet with you and discuss instructor ethics and techniques. That is the way grown ups do things. Until you have spent enough time around me personally to establish an intelligent assessment of my intstructor abilities you should refrain from your fairytales of my "danger" or "disrespect" for rules. P.S. I have never hurt a student in over 3000 tandems. I am the first to sit out in high winds. So your claim I am continuously dangerous is obviously in your demented imagination. I do not intend to get into a pissing match here because frankly it is a waste of my valuable time and nothing is to be achieved by it. If you would lide to meet and discuss these things then PM me. If not then dont be hateful while acting like a coward behind a keyboard with a anonymous profile. Thank you and God blessi'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyGoat 0 #71 April 23, 2011 +1 for Jeff _________________________ goat derka jerka bukkake jihad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #72 April 23, 2011 Are you the TM in these pictures he posted? If so, are the passengers in those pictures students or a licensed skydivers? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128564; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128565;Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alabamaskydiver 0 #73 April 23, 2011 Quotewow! you really hate me. LOL. Have i ever met you?....I dont think so. I have never been disciplined by the USPA....despite your many attempts to have it done. which is wierd and creepy seeing as how I dont know you. You surely have never seen me instruct, aside from some random bits of youtube videos that you apparently masterbate to. Where do you get the notion that I care nothing about students, BSR's and FAR's? I mean I have been on the fringe of them at times but I believe we all have at some point. Why would I not care about students? I am attached to them and I care about myself so therefor I care for them by proxy. Your statements are only founded in your wierd hatred and obsession over me based only on the fact that I instruct at a "skyride" DZ. (which by the way is simply an economic decision). I mind my own business and do my thing....Your childish attempts to bash me and continuous efforts to turn this thread about me(which was your original pyshco intent) is laughable and pathetic. As you see no one here is listening to you nor do they care to fuel, nuture, or join your banwagon of mental disorder. Arent you retired military or something? Is this really how you want to act? I expect this from a 16yr old but seriously.....for an adult its just sad. I would be more than glad to meet with you and discuss instructor ethics and techniques. That is the way grown ups do things. Until you have spent enough time around me personally to establish an intelligent assessment of my intstructor abilities you should refrain from your fairytales of my "danger" or "disrespect" for rules. P.S. I have never hurt a student in over 3000 tandems. I am the first to sit out in high winds. So your claim I am continuously dangerous is obviously in your demented imagination. I do not intend to get into a pissing match here because frankly it is a waste of my valuable time and nothing is to be achieved by it. If you would lide to meet and discuss these things then PM me. If not then dont be hateful while acting like a coward behind a keyboard with a anonymous profile. Thank you and God bless Here's a hurt student and this was after you guys cleaned up the albums and after you got the disciplinary letter from Vic Johnson. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #74 April 23, 2011 Is it a "Sham"? No, I do not think so. It can use some tweaks, but that is normal in a sport that is so "evolutionary" like ours. Coach standards have come up. But they are not expected to be 4-way medalists. Lets not confuse the types of Coaches out there. Staticline and IAD may not be the "In" thing in some areas, but they are still going strong. AFF is now easier to UNDERSTAND when it comes to the STANDARDS. The current system took away the "Ego's" we heard rumor of so much. Now, as to your actual agenda. Sure Jeff Fincher may not have been the best Candidate for an I/E rating in the PAST. Sure he was "Disciplined" (playing a semantics game here aren't you?) in the PAST. But maybe, as those are in the PAST he has learned a bit and is a better "Professional Skydiving Instructor" for it? So, lets give a bit of the benefit of the doubt to him and let him work a bit in the I/E field, maybe he will prove you wrong. Besides as an I/E he knows he is held to a higher standard and has three "Governing Bodies" watching him like all the rest of us. They are, for those who may be asking, the FAA, USPA and the Rig Manufacturer. They all have rules and standards, he met them and past the course, end of story. if any one of us I/E's makes a mistake any one of those three "Governing Bodies" can take action. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #75 April 24, 2011 Quote Here's a hurt student and this was after you guys cleaned up the albums and after you got the disciplinary letter from Vic Johnson. Busted! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
