Small but effective trick

[steveorino 7]

I'm just yanking his chain.

Spot helped a guy with a problem, and Rhys rather insinuate Spot was driven by his own ego rather than consider anything else. This is why I seldom post on here anymore. Too many are here with some sort of hidden agenda.

steveOrino

[rhys 0]

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I'm just yanking his chain....

...Too many are here with some sort of hidden agenda

you adgenda was to get a reaction from me.

so you are being hypocritical.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[steveorino 7]

haha ... got me. 'cept people that know me know my agendas aren't hidden. People who know me know I was yanking your chain.

steveOrino

[rhys 0]

So you seldom post on here anymore because of attitudes such as your own?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[steveorino 7]

no I said hidden ... mine aren't hidden

steveOrino

[rhys 0]

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no I said hidden ... mine aren't hidden

Your intentions were hidden behind your profession.

They were also facetious and obnoxious, and this type of conduct is not becoming of an instructor in an instructor forum.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[airtwardo 6]

Professionalism seems to be a lost art in some respects...

some of you guys need to think about how you relate to your peers as much as ya do your students.

~to the casual observer, it looks like a fuckin ego fueled winey bitch fest going on.


What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[steveorino 7]

Dude, get off your high horse. In my most delusional clients, seldom have I heard such sanctimonious bs. I'm not believing this! People like you crack me up!

steveOrino

[rhys 0]

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Dude, get off your high horse.

No high horse, you came into the conversation claiming you were more qualified than me, attacked me, and added nothing to the conversation.

You are a psycologist and you could add your professional input to the conversation.

Instead you focus on me.

I'm quite willing to learn from you but you are reluctant to give us any input. how about you give us your thoughts on the subject matter.

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In my most delusional clients, seldom have I heard such sanctimonious bs.

What was hypocritical about anything I have said?

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People like you crack me up!

maybe you need a shrink?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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Professionalism seems to be a lost art in some respects...

some of you guys need to think about how you relate to your peers as much as ya do your students.

~to the casual observer, it looks like a fuckin ego fueled whiney bitch fest going on.


What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your expierence.

Well said.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[timmyfitz 0]

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~to the casual observer, it looks like a fuckin ego fueled whiney bitch fest going on.

Well said.

This applies to some posters more than others.

[normiss 622]

[PiLFy 0]

"FREE TIBET! *
* with purchase of equal or lesser Tibet "

[rhys 0]

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This applies to some posters more than others.

You seem to be pretty good at avoiding the point.

Can you actually comment on the topic, or just others that have taken the time to do so?

This is a discussion about instruction.

Your wish seems to be to keep the content away from the topic as usual, if you are going to post in the instructors forum, I suggest you talk about instruction.

Not focus on individuals, if you are going to disagree with people, please let us know what it is that you disagree with and let us all learn.

I am here to learn, you seem to be here to provoke.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[popsjumper 2]

Thread is dead....let it rest in peace.

Can we have a moment of silence in respect of the dead?
Say, oh, about 97 years?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rhys 0]

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thread is dead....let it rest in peace.

Can we have a moment of silence in respect of the dead?
Say, oh, about 97 years?

So what in your mind was determined in this thread about the logic of giving breath strips to your students when they are having breathing difficulties?
what was so set in stone that made the thread now dead?

Remove the ego crap, and reinstate the conversation.

Steve is supposed to be a psycologist, he couldn't add anything to the subject, just condescending tangents.

Several other people have also suggested it is not a good idea and they were met with the same type of conduct.

How about we discuss the subject. And leave the ego at the door?

How has the breath strip got anything to do with the breathing of the subject other than it being a placebo trick?

If not, do you think using a placebo is a good idea in skydiving instruction?

As the title of the thread suggests, it is a trick. Is trickery a good teaching aid?

If you (like DSE) refuse to accept that it is a placebo, then please explian, rather than dismissing without explanation (such as DSE has).

There is still a subject here to discuss, a very good one, but some cannot bare to leave their personal differences aside and stick to the subject.

I may well be wrong about this but condecending attacks are not the best avenue to explain so.

As I said before, I am here to learn.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[timmyfitz 0]

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This applies to some posters more than others.

You seem to be pretty good at avoiding the point.

Can you actually comment on the topic, or just others that have taken the time to do so?

This is a discussion about instruction.

Your wish seems to be to keep the content away from the topic as usual, if you are going to post in the instructors forum, I suggest you talk about instruction.

Not focus on individuals, if you are going to disagree with people, please let us know what it is that you disagree with and let us all learn.

I am here to learn, you seem to be here to provoke.

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So what in your mind was determined in this thread about the logic of giving breath strips to your students when they are having breathing difficulties?
what was so set in stone that made the thread now dead?

Remove the ego crap, and reinstate the conversation.

Steve is supposed to be a psycologist, he couldn't add anything to the subject, just condescending tangents.

Several other people have also suggested it is not a good idea and they were met with the same type of conduct.

How about we discuss the subject. And leave the ego at the door?

How has the breath strip got anything to do with the breathing of the subject other than it being a placebo trick?

If not, do you think using a placebo is a good idea in skydiving instruction?

As the title of the thread suggests, it is a trick. Is trickery a good teaching aid?

If you (like DSE) refuse to accept that it is a placebo, then please explian, rather than dismissing without explanation (such as DSE has).

There is still a subject here to discuss, a very good one, but some cannot bare to leave their personal differences aside and stick to the subject.

I may well be wrong about this but condecending attacks are not the best avenue to explain so.

As I said before, I am here to learn.

You have proven my point. Thank you.

[rehmwa 2]

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If not, do you think using a placebo is a good idea in skydiving instruction?

I'd consider the strip specifically to be a 'focus' item, not a placebo. It physically makes the throat cool as one inhales and gives the student something to sense and remind them every breath.

However, to your question - using a placebo in the psychology of teaching - I all for it if it works and creates a safe mindset and improved habits. And it doesn't much matter what the placebo is, a good instructor will take an unusually difficult student and try the figure out what works if the standardized process isn't effective - signals, thinking points, relaxation techniques, physically moving the arms and legs, funny faces, arousal setting, whatever is needed.

If you think about it, I'd consider a "hand signal" to fall into the category of a 'placebo' frankly. While physically moving a leg or arm is direct, a hand signal doesn't actually move a student, they still have to be aware, recognize the input, and then THEY respond.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[steveorino 7]

I think Spot pointed out that the strips helped. I'd think he used them as an external clue to breathe just as I do with my of my students when I look at them and take a deep breath with a motion from my hand that looks like a yoga move. All of these are simply reminders. Good instructors use these all the time.

Others would rather read one paragraph and make a bold statement such as "The guy was clearly not ready to fly a wing-suit". Spot, who has had plenty of experience teaching Wing-Suiters taught the guy and had first hand info to make his decision with.

But it appears you and Ron would rather create a pissing contest, which smacks of an underlying agenda. Hmmm, wonder what that is? Perhaps if nothing else it is a strong narcissistic personality that can only find achievement in their life by the limitations/failures of others.

BTW, I'm a Licensed therapist and a licensed counselor, not a psychologist

steveOrino

[gzimmermann 0]

I am not an instructor but the "subject", student here. I have followed this thread just passively but would like to add my comments now:
- As you can see in the video (see above or just go to youtube, "gerhard wingsuit"), I am not the relaxed, naturally gifted skydiver to make life easy to instructors. I am 46, have an M Sc degree in business, father of two almost adult daughters and got into that sport in June 2009 with the goal to get into WS once allowed and capable to do so. I mention this to point out that I am and was serious about it, both in getting there and being safe with it for me and others.
- I learnt in my professional track that "psychological means" can sometimes help a lot. I learnt about visualizing, NLP and "psychological anchors" (German term maybe)
- I had two great instructors, whose advise I was seeking while doing extreme sports like kiteboarding and skydiving who really helped me. One was a 50+ year old guy who knew a lot about biological processes. He helped me understand more about "muscle memory" while trying to get into kiteboarding back in 2005. Kiteboarding does not work if you cannot go switch as some of you may know, meaning either foot in front of the driving direction, which is sometimes hard to learn with your "wrong" foot in front. The other one was Spot, DSE. He sensed quickly that more relaxing and breathing was definitely an obstacle against my progress and acted. Both in applying simple psychological means like making me relax on the ground in defined body positions and also with the "breathing pill, strip". We both knew it was a trick and we both liked the effect.
-> My point is: I can only recommend to any instructor working with empathy and apply creative means when working with students like me. "Do a barrel roll" may not provide the same result with me compared to: "breathe...take your left arm in, then your right arm, left arm back out, right to follow. Just like a sequence in dancing. And let us practice this now on the ground."

Spot, thanks! And as you mentioned: The breathing pill, strip is a running gag between some of us now....

[matthewcline 0]

And there you have it.

Now the Thread can be locked as some one asked earlier.

Glad it worked and even "gladder" your having fun with it!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Ron 7]

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But it appears you and Ron would rather create a pissing contest, which smacks of an underlying agenda. Perhaps if nothing else it is a strong narcissistic personality that can only find achievement in their life by the limitations/failures of others.

God forbid a guy does not agree with something. I thought one of the reasons for this forum is for instructors to discuss topics and ideas.

DSE posted what he thought was a great idea, I brought my reasons for not agreeing with his trick. I think the underlying issues should be fixed before more complex skills are taught.

Some understood it while others, and now you, have attacked me for my opinion.

Who has the agenda again?

And you wanna talk about narcissistic behavior....http://www.steveorino.com/

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhys 0]

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You have proven my point. Thank you.

[eyes roll back]

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[hookitt 0]

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You have proven my point. Thank you.

[eyes roll back]

That's what I've been doing reading much of this thread.

I'm glad real live instruction is easier than what I've read here

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rhys 0]

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I'd consider the strip specifically to be a 'focus' item, not a placebo. It physically makes the throat cool as one inhales and gives the student something to sense and remind them every breath.

Thanks you for bringing the conversation to the level it should be.

That is a valid point, however I would have thought that it would only remind you to breath of you actually took a breath?, I know the feeling these strips give you on the back of the throat, but don't you usually have to take a breath to get that sensation?

we were told that he was holding his breath from exit to opening, which I find very difficult to beleive. If this were the case, that effect you say would be moot would it not?

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However, to your question - using a placebo in the psychology of teaching - I all for it if it works and creates a safe mindset and improved habits. And it doesn't much matter what the placebo is, a good instructor will take an unusually difficult student and try the figure out what works if the standardized process isn't effective -

I am all for using placebo to, for hypochondriacs in medicine etc. But I am not sure whether it is a good idea in skydiving instruction. When I say not sure, this is where my interest in this conversation arises.

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signals, thinking points, relaxation techniques, physically moving the arms and legs, funny faces, arousal setting, whatever is needed.

These are things should have been (and may have been) used, as much as DSE and his student say they know it was not a breathing pill. That is what he said, and that is the point he was putting accross to random people in an instrcutors forum where many up and coming instrcutors will be reading.

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If you think about it, I'd consider a "hand signal" to fall into the category of a 'placebo' frankly. While physically moving a leg or arm is direct, a hand signal doesn't actually move a student, they still have to be aware, recognize the input, and then THEY respond.

No they are an instruction, they are a physical reminder made from the instructor to the student at the time when they are doing the said activity.

I am not out to argue, and we can agree to disagree, there are many different teaching aids that some will use and some will not. Some are effective for some people and others will have success with other techniques.

If this technique worked well for DSE and his student, great, but don't go posting it online as a great effective trick for those having difficulties breathing, OFTEN breathing difficulties come from those that are undergoing a task they are uncomfortable with.

This is the concern I had and that I feel the others that have oposed this technique have had also.

But once again it our perogative to not use the said technique, comment on our concerns with it and suggest that it potentially should not be used.

And also, thanks again for a diplomatic reply that focuses on the subject rather than the poster, it is (mind the pun) a breath of fresh air .

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix