Small but effective trick

[rhys 0]

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+1

Or else we are supposed to believe that all nervous students (or jumpers at any level trying something new) should be grounded.

(Great, so now we only have to go up and instruct the cluelessly overconfident students...)

What???

So there are no stages between student status and wingsuiting??

There is always the previous level. If somone s holding thier breath for the entire jump, they are not relaxed.

I really do not beleive it is likely that this was the case, as holding your breath for a minute and a hlaf or longer while exerting energy is very hard to do, but this is the information we have to work with.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DSE 3]

I have an idea.
Let's take wingsuit students that can't exit from full altitude without holding their breath and exit them from say....5K (cuz it's easy to do 45 seconds from 5K).
Except beginning WS deploy at 5.5.

Next level back from a WS skydive is a tracking skydive. Student performs very, very well in a tracking skydive.
Taking him back to where he already performs very well isn't going to help his confidence, isn't going to change up his thought process, and will perhaps have exactly the opposite effect and demotivate him.
So, what do you suggest be done with the student?

And...how do you fault the success of the effort? So long as safety isn't compromised in any way, why is the means of achievement a problem?

[rhys 0]

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And...how do you fault the success of the effort? So long as safety isn't compromised in any way, why is the means of achievement a problem?

Because you lied to them and gave them a placebo.

It may have worked well for that situation and for that individual, but to suggest it is a good instructional technique for everybody in this situation is a very bad idea.

It is part of the job of an instructor to ascertain the difficulties the student is having, explain it to the student so they have a good understanding of what is happening to them, reduce their anxiety and make sure they understand and react properly.

Your suggstion is basically lying to them, and giving them a pill and hope it fixes their problem.

Correct me if I am wrong but that is plain old lazy.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DSE 3]

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And...how do you fault the success of the effort? So long as safety isn't compromised in any way, why is the means of achievement a problem?

Because you lied to them and gave them a placebo.

It may have worked well for that situation and for that individual, but to suggest it is a good instructional technique for everybody in this situation is a very bad idea.

It is part of the job of an instructor to ascertain the difficulties the student is having, explain it to the student so they have a good understanding of what is happening to them, reduce their anxiety and make sure they understand and react properly.

Your suggstion is basically lying to them, and giving them a pill and hope it fixes their problem.

Correct me if I am wrong but that is plain old lazy.

You sure you're an instructor? Really?

A good instructor has a "toolbox." They know how to use their "tools" with different personalities. To suggest that a humorous comment to a student while holding a package of Listerine strips is a "lie" is beyond absurd....get a grip.

[popsjumper 2]

It sounds like what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what results one gets using Method A, one must use a different method for the results to be acceptable to you.

Is that a good paraphrase?


Is this the scenario you picture?

DSE: Here's something that will cure your breathing.
Student: Yeah? I'll take it!
DSE (HEHEHEHE)\
Student: WOW That really worked! Where can I get more of those?
DSE: (sucker fell for that one, didn't he? Hhehehehehe)


I think you are seriously underestimating the intelligence of the student using the breath mint. Surely you don't think that he thought the breath mint would magically make him breathe....do you?

Well, if not, then what do you now think was going on there...DSE "lying" to him? DSE "tricking" him?

Believe it or not, we sometimes actually have fun teaching students...it's not all nose-to-the-grinding-wheel.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rhys 0]

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You sure you're an instructor? Really?

A good instructor has a "toolbox." They know how to use their "tools" with different personalities. To suggest that a humorous comment to a student while holding a package of Listerine strips is a "lie" is beyond absurd....get a grip.Crazy

If someone is clearly uncomfortable enough 2 times in a row flying a wingsuit to the point where they cannot breath, then sendng them up for a third time without ascertaining what their fear was, and using that knowldge to nurture them into safety, is not good teaching. Maybe you did that, and maybe just reminding him to beat before exit was the key, don't turn it into fables.

Read your post;

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Probably not new to some of you, but found a trick that worked this weekend.
I had a wingsuit student that was scared spitless, but was determined.
He sucked in a breath on exit and didn't exhale until he deployed. His body tension was obvious, even though he flew straight and reasonably well.
During the debrief and subsequent corrective action, we focused on breathing and relaxation.
Same thing on the next jump, no breathing.
Third jump, I saw the pilot had a pack of Listerine strips.
I took one out just before we exited, showed it to my student and told him "this is a breathing strip, it'll assure you breathe in flight." He put it in his mouth and away we went.
He breathed, he was relaxed and smooth in flight, and improved 200%...

You gave us no information about what information you gathered of their anxiety or inability to relax and breath, neither did you give us information about your briefs or debriefs, you simply painted a picture of you guys up there for the third time in a row after two consecutive jumps of them not breathing while trying to fly a wingsuit. Then you say giving him a breath stip saying it is his brathing strip, worked as a teaching aid.

What else am I supposed to think. Don;t forget that not everybody has a steep learning curve, no matter how much they may want to think so, ir want to tell you.

This person was clealy uncomfortable.

How many jumps and in how long, did this person have by the way?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Skyper 0]

having something in mouth during the jump may easily result in sucking that object in the air pipe... with all consequences of those.

If someone does not breath while performing some activity, whatever activity might be, the person is actually strugling with some undisturbing toughts. There is a substantial fear within. Not breathing just encreases that fear. Breathing won't bring that fear away. And I'm affraid that no further training what so ever would help person to overcome this kind of fears - because they are deeply grounded in the personal past experiences.

Most of ppl are affraid of the hight, but some people are terrified by it! Please admit it before you proceed with this student further. Maybe he passed that jump level, that time with you. But somewhere on his future jumps he might get the same "blockade" again in some other way and sucking won't help anymore.

[Andy9o8 0]

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having something in mouth during the jump may easily result in sucking that object in the air pipe... with all consequences of those.

Listerine strips are paper-thin and dissolve instantly.

Anyhow, not all ingenuity is recklessness. Sometimes it's just ingenuity.

[pchapman 261]

Skyper wrote:

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having something in mouth during the jump may easily result in sucking that object in the air pipe... with all consequences of those.

Skyper: True, but these newfangled breath strip things dissolve completely & quickly in the mouth. With nothing in the mouth during the jump, it is far safer than offering a student gum.


Skyper:

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There is a substantial fear within. Not breathing just encreases that fear. Breathing won't bring that fear away. And I'm affraid that no further training what so ever would help person to overcome this kind of fears - because they are deeply grounded in the personal past experiences.

DSE: Looks like you'll have to get all your students to sit on a couch and start telling you about their childhood and relationship with their mother.

[Skyper 0]

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Skyper wrote:

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having something in mouth during the jump may easily result in sucking that object in the air pipe... with all consequences of those.

Skyper: True, but these newfangled breath strip things dissolve completely & quickly in the mouth. With nothing in the mouth during the jump, it is far safer than offering a student gum.


Skyper:

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There is a substantial fear within. Not breathing just encreases that fear. Breathing won't bring that fear away. And I'm affraid that no further training what so ever would help person to overcome this kind of fears - because they are deeply grounded in the personal past experiences.

DSE: Looks like you'll have to get all your students to sit on a couch and start telling you about their childhood and relationship with their mother.

I have a feeling that instructors trying to sell as much as possible. In that sense, they're trying to force studends further development at any costs - tricks included. Why not simply admit that some people are not suitable for this sport and close the case? I guess it wouldn't be commercially acceptable?

[PiLFy 0]

"...and then a little crew of self proclaimed wannabe instructors jumped in on his defense."


I've no desire to be an instructor. I already have a profession, Thank You. One doesn't have to be an expert in this field to smell fertilizer. You're the latest of Ron's friends who have come here twisting the facts around. His approach worked, & you don't like it. Bottom line? I don't know DSE, or even where he is. I do know he is the type of instructor I seek out. Self-aggrandizing pissy egomaniacs need not apply. "Apply," as in we choose you. Beginning students choose the DZ & school, not individual instructors. Advanced students are more selective. Spare me the knee-jerk defensiveness about how many students you've taught. It's irrelevant. Your posts have lost you my vote. We students vote w/our checkbooks. You might want to think about that...

[PiLFy 0]

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Skyper wrote:

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having something in mouth during the jump may easily result in sucking that object in the air pipe... with all consequences of those.

Skyper: True, but these newfangled breath strip things dissolve completely & quickly in the mouth. With nothing in the mouth during the jump, it is far safer than offering a student gum.


Skyper:

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There is a substantial fear within. Not breathing just encreases that fear. Breathing won't bring that fear away. And I'm affraid that no further training what so ever would help person to overcome this kind of fears - because they are deeply grounded in the personal past experiences.

DSE: Looks like you'll have to get all your students to sit on a couch and start telling you about their childhood and relationship with their mother.

I have a feeling that instructors trying to sell as much as possible. In that sense, they're trying to force studends further development at any costs - tricks included. Why not simply admit that some people are not suitable for this sport and close the case? I guess it wouldn't be commercially acceptable?

Other instructors who know DSE. Know that this is not the case. The student already had a minimum of 200 jumps before trying wingsuits. He had a bad habit of never breathing in free fall. He said as much. DSE helped him break a bad habit. As well as teaching him how to fly a wingsuit w/o killing himself. "Why not simply admit it?" That just galls you to no end. Doesn't it?

[Skyper 0]

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The student already had a minimum of 200 jumps before trying wingsuits. He had a bad habit of never breathing in free fall. He said as much. DSE helped him break a bad habit. As well as teaching him how to fly a wingsuit w/o killing himself. "Why not simply admit it?" That just galls you to no end. Doesn't it?

How did you or DSE discovered that the student is not breathing during the free fall?

[PiLFy 0]

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The student already had a minimum of 200 jumps before trying wingsuits. He had a bad habit of never breathing in free fall. He said as much. DSE helped him break a bad habit. As well as teaching him how to fly a wingsuit w/o killing himself. "Why not simply admit it?" That just galls you to no end. Doesn't it?

How did you or DSE discovered that the student is not breathing during the free fall?

How did we discover that fact? Read the posts. It's right there.

[Skyper 0]

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The student already had a minimum of 200 jumps before trying wingsuits. He had a bad habit of never breathing in free fall. He said as much. DSE helped him break a bad habit. As well as teaching him how to fly a wingsuit w/o killing himself. "Why not simply admit it?" That just galls you to no end. Doesn't it?

How did you or DSE discovered that the student is not breathing during the free fall?

How did we discover that fact? Read the posts. It's right there.

I cannot find a word about the way he discovered the guy is not breathing. Could you repost it here please?

[DSE 3]

I knew he wasn't breathing by the tenseness he exhibited a few seconds before pull time. He wasn't unstable, it was just "one of those things" you learn to look for.

[Skyper 0]

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I knew he wasn't breathing by the tenseness he exhibited a few seconds before pull time. He wasn't unstable, it was just "one of those things" you learn to look for.

DSE, I think you made a good job of noticing this in the first place! And you made also a good point of finding the way to make him aware of the problem.

If I were you I'd ask him if he's aware of not breathing during the jump. On the next jump(s) I'd ask him to solely focus on breating. No other tasks - only breathing and relaxing.

I'd advise you to keep pay attention to this student since, as I said before, he has some kind of blockade which prevents him from relaxing during jump. And with 200 jumps this sounds quite serious problem. At least there is one fear that occupies his mind during the jump and because of that he does not breath properly. Now that he does breath it does not mean his fear is gone. It's just waiting for the next reason to be triggered again...

It's also a good method a breathing exercise. Let them put the palm on the stomac and deeply breath in and breath out. When they're up in the air... before the jump. Remind them to deeply breath in and breath out again - just before the jump.

Good luck!

[popsjumper 2]

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...I have a feeling that instructors trying to sell as much as possible. In that sense, they're trying to force studends further development at any costs - tricks included....

So...AFF Level 1 students quite often mention breathing problems. Surely you're not suggesting that we make them repeat the level over and over again until they can breathe however it is that you want them breathe. Are we forcing them into further development by moving them on the Level 2?

How do you guys do it over there? Do a LOT of Level 1 skydives, do you?

You naysay guys have a point but DSE's situation isn't the place to apply it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[d123 1]

I really like instructors like you and Ron. Wise minds. I think you guys teach the love of skydiving.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[rhys 0]

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"...and then a little crew of self proclaimed wannabe instructors jumped in on his defense."


I've no desire to be an instructor. I already have a profession, Thank You. One doesn't have to be an expert in this field to smell fertilizer. You're the latest of Ron's friends who have come here twisting the facts around....

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Are you guys done swinging your dicks around?

I think its a neat trick. As a coach and wannabe instructor I frequent this forum often looking for tips just like this one so that I may learn from others experience...

Try reading the whole thread....

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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So...AFF Level 1 students quite often mention breathing problems. Surely you're not suggesting that we make them repeat the level over and over again until they can breathe however it is that you want them breathe.

He is saying don't take people on wingsuit jumps that have clearly showed that are not ready. Try a tracking suit, try something else and come back to it, but don't keep repeating the same mistake over and over without changing anything, and hope for the best while placing your faith in the placebo effect.

Some people are too keen to progress, when they are not yet ready.

I asked how many jumos and in what space of time, to try and get more information, others have asked what the student was thinking or anxious about but that has not been answered, only defensive attacks on those that are trying to help or make the situation more clear.

Once again, I find it difficult to beleive that they did hold thier breath for the whole time, but that is the diagnosed problem so that is what we have to work with.

How about this conversation moves away from the squabble and back to the subject.

DSE, please answer the questions;

How many jumps and in what space of time did this person have.

and

What was determined from the debreif(s) that was the cause of anxiety or lack of breathing?

Nobody has the information to give any input other than whether or not these breth strips are a good idea or not.

it is common for people to disagree with teaching techniques, so how about we learn to acknowledge our differences and actually discuss the subject and not each other...

Instructing is not about ego, it is about learning, and giving your student what they rightfully deserve.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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I knew he wasn't breathing by the tenseness he exhibited a few seconds before pull time. He wasn't unstable, it was just "one of those things" you learn to look for.

You said earlier your debrief was about breathing, what did you guys discuss about the cause of him holding his breath?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Skyper 0]

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So...AFF Level 1 students quite often mention breathing problems. Surely you're not suggesting that we make them repeat the level over and over again until they can breathe however it is that you want them breathe. Are we forcing them into further development by moving them on the Level 2?

How do you guys do it over there? Do a LOT of Level 1 skydives, do you?

You naysay guys have a point but DSE's situation isn't the place to apply it.

I guess there are much more things the AFF-level1 student is strugling with than just "not breathing" :)
My statement is applies to someone with continious strugle with this kind of "indications".

I saw students having mouth widely open during the entire jump :D it was quite funny to see. And they were also surprised when they saw the video of it afterwards. They were totaly unaware of doing it. So it wouldn't surprise me if AFF-studends are doing other strange things as well. But if this behaviour presists than, he/she obviously has a problem that needs to be solved and not "tricked into".

[popsjumper 2]

Ok...we just seem to be viewing the same situation from two different angles.

I believe that sometimes the end justifies the means. It appears to me that this is one of those times.

DSE's little "trick" (if that's what you want to call it) to accomplish his goal worked.

And I really don't see his breathing "problem" as a show-stopper...200 jumps and it being no hold-up to his progression thus far.

Well, to be fair, we don't know what else the kid has done along the path, all the while dealing with his "problem"....does he Freefly? Bigways? Camera? Demos? Swoop?

So, again, by all means, deal with real problems before they become real issues before moving on....that's a good thing and any good Instructor would do that.

I think we're just arguing about what constitutes a real problem and that's hard. Every situation is measured on it's own merit and none of us were there.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

Wow, we're starting all over again? funny

So, if the student (or even another instructor) just shows up with hangover/coffee/ashtray mouth -

can I just give them a breath mint because they smell disgusting and unprofessional?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants