Small but effective trick

[DSE 3]

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Me, I tend to think that a person who is exhibiting signs of being stressed should not be given additional complex tasks....

I understand your position, Ron.
Next time I see a student exhibiting signs of stress just before deployment after 90 seconds of freefall, I'm gonna make him get back in the aircraft and ride it down.

I'm with Ron. You said he was exhbiting signs of stress (ergo not breathing) on the tracking jump. I would have sorted that before moving onto a more complex skydive.

No, I didn't say that. The first sign of not breathing was near deployment time on the wingsuit jump/first flight.
His tracking dive was near perfect.

Grant had a good point; it's great to be discussing small tricks like the tictacs, jaw relaxation, etc that some folks have brought up (IMO).
Armchair quarterbacking a student that you haven't observed and several on the DZ did, that did a very, very good first flight is a little silly.
To suggest a breath strip is "magical" is irrational. To suggest the student is superstitious and needed a breath strip is irrational as well.
Coincidentally, one of the Brit CI's here did the same thing with one of his guys working on his consols. I need to tell him that he should ground his student. Perhaps the threat of leaving Southern California for the UK weather might be enough to scare the shit out of him so he breathes right.

[Ron 7]

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No, I didn't say that. The first sign of not breathing was near deployment time on the wingsuit jump/first flight.
His tracking dive was near perfect.

Yeah, but once you saw the problem you took him on two more jumps.

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I had a wingsuit student that was scared spitless, but was determined.
He sucked in a breath on exit and didn't exhale until he deployed. His body tension was obvious, even though he flew straight and reasonably well.
During the debrief and subsequent corrective action, we focused on breathing and relaxation.
Same thing on the next jump, no breathing.
Third jump,

So you saw it on the 1st and 2nd jump and then took him for a third anyway.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DSE 3]

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So you saw it on the 1st and 2nd jump and then took him for a third anyway.

Yes, I did.
Deep breath, see if you can figure this out.
Student has issues in the air.
You observe them.
You work with them to correct or change the issue during ground work.
After the ground work where they appear to be entirely prepared, what do you do next?

[cpoxon 0]

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Me, I tend to think that a person who is exhibiting signs of being stressed should not be given additional complex tasks....

I understand your position, Ron.
Next time I see a student exhibiting signs of stress just before deployment after 90 seconds of freefall, I'm gonna make him get back in the aircraft and ride it down.

I'm with Ron. You said he was exhbiting signs of stress (ergo not breathing) on the tracking jump. I would have sorted that before moving onto a more complex skydive.

No, I didn't say that. The first sign of not breathing was near deployment time on the wingsuit jump/first flight.
His tracking dive was near perfect.

Aplogies. Reading comprehension failure.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[rehmwa 2]

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Yes, I did.
Deep breath, see if you can figure this out.
Student has issues in the air.
You observe them.
You work with them to correct or change the issue during ground work.
After the ground work where they appear to be entirely prepared, what do you do next?

you know what? if you delete that bold part, then you don't escalate the personalities, you are just talking about the training with another instructor. But you keep putting those jabs in there. it's not productive

I know Ron - he never instigates, ever. But when people are snotty to him, then he digs in.


This started your whole pissing match - with a couple others piling on

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That is AMAZING! You can read something on the internet from X miles away and render a diagnosis that fast!
Wish I could be that good.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DSE 3]

Point taken.

Same question;
Student has issues in the air.
You observe them.
You work with them to correct or change the issue during ground work.
After the ground work where they appear to be entirely prepared, what do you do next?

[Niki1 1]

Good Job!!
That wasn't a breath strip as much as it was a "Dumbo's Feather". Whatever it takes.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[Ron 7]

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Student has issues in the air.
You observe them.
You work with them to correct or change the issue during ground work.
After the ground work where they appear to be entirely prepared, what do you do next?

I have answered that before, but for the sake of moving forward I will answer again... Maybe in a way that is not found offensive.

I would attempt to fix the base problem (relaxation) without the added stress of the more complex situation (flying a WS).

For example.... I had an AFF L4. She flat out nailed the L3 (could have been used as a L3 prep video). But she was so tense on her L4 that she tried to roll over several times instead of turning. Some people would have just failed her and had her do another L4.

Instead, I sat her down and talked to her to find out why she was stressed... She was stressed out over the thought of doing turns AND only having one guy there.

So, instead of making her do another L4 dive plan, and maybe SEVERAL more... I took her up to do a modified L3/4 with a single JM. I told her the goal of this jump was to just hold a heading, relax, and enjoy the jump. If she WANTED to turn she should feel free, but she didn't have to even try. After she looked comfortable in freefall, I had her look into my eyes and side slid/carved to the right so she had done a 90* left turn. I then slid back so she had done a R turn. After that she smiled. She was comfortable with a single JM AND she could turn. I pointed for her to turn the other way... She did several turns on that jump on her own and flew through the remaining jumps.

I listened to the things that were causing her stress (single JM, having to turn) and removed one of the stressors. (To be fair... I also snuck it right back in)

I did my first WS jump with over 3,000 jumps... And I felt stress (ask Scotty Burns). I can't image the level of stress if I was already stressed over a basic issue.

So there you go... I would remove as many stressors I could till I was able to fix the base issue and then add the stressors back in one at a time.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Scrumpot 1]

RON HAS AN "AGENDA"

Ron has personal "ties" and/or a relationship to a certain WS instructor, who is "competitive", or at least in some ways, in "conflict" with Douglas, and his affiliated WS school. I have acknowledged this right from the beginning.

1. In my post (#39 in this thread) here, where I state it quite DIRECTLY:

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Like Ron - I was not there. ...thinking I also had any "agenda" (in my earlier post) - would be a mistake. Just "for the record".

2. Then again in my post (#44 in this thread), where I am responding to a newby, who for whatever reason has seen fit to try and "smack me down":

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IN REPLY TO: Ron clearly had an agenda.

Gee, I didn't get that. That went so obviously, well over my head. - Thanks for straightening me out on that one.

EDIT TO ADD: Maybe you didn't see my post (#39) above, before you decided to just spout off your authoritative "smack-down" reply?

Just in case any of you may have missed this, in now, all the "white noise".

Does that mean that Ron's perspectives and input (and all our resultant DISCUSSION) should be just summarily dismissed as having NO MERIT at all, in ANY way whatsoever? I don't think so. And I have also stated that as well, right from the beginning.

There now. To be perfectly clear. Or hopefully so, for those of you who may have (and I am hearing, quite apparently previously HAVE) missed it.

I, personally, have actually gotten quite bit of value and benefit from CONSIDERING both sides of the perspective. Regardless of any "agenda"(s) - which I have acknowledged, and recognized may be there. FWIW. Peel those aside people. Or don't. Clearly, YOUR own choice. You all just carry on now in whatever direction(s) or fashion(s) as you all see fit from here. I've asked my questions. I've had them answered. And again - PUBLICLY... at least, to my satisfaction.

I am out.
Blue Skies guys.
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Ron 7]

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Ron has personal "ties" and/or a relationship to a certain WS instructor, who is "competitive", or at least in some ways, in "conflict" with Douglas, and his affiliated WS school.

Could you tell me who that is????? I know several WS instructors and honestly have no idea who even jumps what or who is affiliated with whom.

I have known Tony "Uragonnagolow" for years but don't jump a Tony Suit. I think Chuck Blue might have tried to ruin my life at one point. Scotty "limp allong" Burns is the guy that tried to kill me by pretty much forcing me to jump a WS.... But I can honestly say I don't know who your are referring to.... Seriously.

Edit to add... I also know John Storrie. But again I have no idea what affiliation he is.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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Edit to add... I also know John Storrie. But again I have no idea what affiliation he is.

you know Storrie? that's it, I don't think I can even look at you anymore

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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you know Storrie? that's it, I don't think I can even look at you anymore

You have seen my Facebook.... And all the toys I have bought. Of course I know Storrie... I am also personal friends of Bob Pope!!!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DSE 3]

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So, instead of making her do another L4 dive plan, and maybe SEVERAL more... I took her up to do a modified L3/4 with a single JM. I told her the goal of this jump was to just hold a heading, relax, and enjoy the jump. If she WANTED to turn she should feel free, but she didn't have to even try. After she looked comfortable in freefall, I had her look into my eyes and side slid/carved to the right so she had done a 90* left turn. I then slid back so she had done a R turn.

So you did take a student knowing there were stressors, after you'd worked on the ground with them and believed you'd removed the stress.
I did the same.
You were successful with your effort, as was I.

[Ron 7]

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So you did take a student knowing there were stressors, after you'd worked on the ground with them and believed you'd removed the stress.
I did the same.

You just skipped over everything you didn't want to read.

Here it is again:

Instead, I sat her down and talked to her to find out why she was stressed... She was stressed out over the thought of doing turns AND only having one guy there.

So, instead of making her do another L4 dive plan, and maybe SEVERAL more... I took her up to do a modified L3/4 with a single JM. I told her the goal of this jump was to just hold a heading, relax, and enjoy the jump. If she WANTED to turn she should feel free, but she didn't have to even try.


I listened to the things that were causing her stress (single JM, having to turn) and removed one of the stressors.

I REMOVED a stressor (OK, hid it but easier to do an a L3/4 than a WS) you just kept on going.

To compare the two, to follow your plan, I would have had to just wing a tic-tac at her and signed her off for a L5.

You got upset that I didn't agree with you and you got all snarky and defensive ..... It is clear you have ZERO interest in any type of discussion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DSE 3]

dick-swinging needed again.
please re-read my post(s). We talked about why he didn't breathe.
We talked about and then repetitively dirt-dived both physical and kinesthetic exercises. He felt he was prepared. We did another jump (testing the application as planned and taught), and while it was better, it wasn't to either of our expectations.
Alternative techniques were applied. We did another jump. He was successful.

He indicated he didn't know he wasn't breathing/was holding his breath until this first jump.
He has been doing FF jumps with coaches, and no one had caught this before, probably because an FF jump is significantly shorter than a WS jump.
He wasn't stressing over a WS, wasn't feeling emotions brought on from incidents when he was 3 years old, wasn't releasing suppressed memories, and he wasn't afraid of a turn. I can easily understand how your approach might create stress for someone. Good for you that you helped your student over come that stress. Others would have just turned her away. Some people function at higher levels of tension than others.

He was never acting in an unsafe manner, wasn't a danger to himself or others, and wasn't in any way being problematic. He merely wasn't entirely meeting the goals we'd set out to achieve at the start of the skydive coaching process.
Perhaps the shortest way to express it (again) is that he had difficulty relaxing. We found a temporary technique that worked to permanently achieve those goals, even if you don't agree with it.

I'm glad we're both passionate about resolving our student's issues. If nothing else, this thread demonstrates dedication, if not maturity.

Either way, his problem is resolved.
Next time I'll try Dumbo's feather. That's a novel approach.

[PiLFy 0]

"But this is like the most "action" we've actually gotten in a long time, in an instructors (topical) thread! Much more of this, and the darn thing is gonna have one of those flames icons next to it, like something outa bonfire or SC. Tongue"

So, you & Ron like to stir sh*t up? That's obvious. I'm finding that this sport has a ton of great people, & a few A-holes. My underwear isn't bunched up, smarty. I honestly couldn't care less what you think. You're now just another A_hole to be ignored. If you can't read the multitude of clear followup posts provided by DSE. You've very little command of the English language. That, or you're a liar. Either way, I'm through wasting time on you.

[Scrumpot 1]

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...If you can't read the multitude of clear followup posts provided by DSE.

Didn't need to read "the multitude" to get it clear. I recognized and acknowledged it right away.

What part of my post (#39 in this thread) did you not understand?

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Either way, I'm through wasting time on you.

Thank you.
Feeling's mutual.

Best of luck and wishes to you for your successful longevity, both in this sport, and in here.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[d123 1]

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The guy was clearly not ready to fly a wingsuit.

If on dz.com we would have an "I like it" button for every post (like on youtube for movies) than know sir that I would click that button for your post!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[d123 1]

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On a side note to remind folks, gum is not advised I know of one student who gasped and choked her self released one toggle in the panic that set in and ended up dead. So please don't let or give your students gum or other large items they can choke on when they leave the ac.

They do autopsy for a skydiving case?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[d123 1]

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Are you guys done swinging your dicks around?

I think its a neat trick. As a coach and wannabe instructor i frequent this forum often looking for tips just like this one so that I may learn from others experience.

It's a shame this thread has turned into a dick swinging war. It could have been a cool thread where other instructors chime in on different innovative tricks and trips they have learned though the years.

Maybe some thread trimming is in order to get back on topic.

Besides, neither one of you can win. Everyone has huge dick online.

Good post too!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Andy9o8 0]

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On a side note to remind folks, gum is not advised I know of one student who gasped and choked her self released one toggle in the panic that set in and ended up dead. So please don't let or give your students gum or other large items they can choke on when they leave the ac.

They do autopsy for a skydiving case?

Of course.

[rhys 0]

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I had a wingsuit student that was scared spitless, but was determined.
He sucked in a breath on exit and didn't exhale until he deployed. His body tension was obvious...

...Bottom line, a silly breath mint strip fixed his problem or seems to have.

Sounds like you want an instructional pill. Each individual is different and should be taught what is happening to them, not told fables and given a placebo.

Haha, This seems like poor instuctional techniques to me.

It should never be out of line to point out to another instructor that their student/trainee was having difficulties and probably needed to cut back a notch.

It should never be taboo for someone to point out danger.

Any instructor that cannot take constructive criticism is proably not doing the right thing. None of us are perfect, so there is no point in any of us pretenting to be.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[pchapman 261]

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It could have been a cool thread where other instructors chime in on different innovative tricks and trips they have learned though the years.

+1

Or else we are supposed to believe that all nervous students (or jumpers at any level trying something new) should be grounded.

(Great, so now we only have to go up and instruct the cluelessly overconfident students...)

[Andy9o8 0]

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Haha, This seems like poor instuctional techniques to me.

Why are you deliberately baiting and trolling someone in a skydiving thread? Come back over to SC; you can call me an asshat all you want if you need to get it out of your system so badly.

[rhys 0]

Look, I am not deliberatly trolling someone I am being honest.

Placebo may work on some but is not a good answer.

This guy was having probelems relaxing, for some reason or another, and even though this little trick 'may' have worked on this individual at this time, it would have been better to anylise what was going through his mind, find out what the probelem was and resolve the problem.

Not everything can be fixed with a pill.

It was pointed out to DSE by Ron that maybe the student should be taken back a notch until they were more comfortable, he got on a high horse, got defensive and then a little crew of self proclaimed wannabe instructors jumped in on his defense.

This is poor instructional dimeanour, if someone points out to you something that you may not be doing effectively, you should acknowledge the information and respond professionally.

He has changed his tune, and asked for advice, but the initial prospect that a placebo effect and fibs is a good idea is fundamentally wrong.

If nothing was said about this by anyone we may have seen these new instructors coming thorough with a pack of listerine strips in thier pocket and telling their students fables and giving them a placebo rather than finding the root of the cause and fixing it.

It seems damned lazy to me, I am being honest, and even though you may want to disagree with me on everything becuase our political standponts are polar opposites, I am allowed to add my .02 maybe help a potentially dangerous situation from happening.

I am an instructor and this is an instructor forum.

How about you tell us why you think this listerine strip idea is a good one and my thoughts and suggestions are bad rather than just attacking me.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix