Small but effective trick

[Ron 7]

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The issue was hidden/inobvious during his assessment dive (tracking) and didn't become apparent until after he'd exited the aircraft in a wingsuit.

But then you continued the current path without assessing the situation any further. You looked for a neat trick, but kept the same level of stress on the student.

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You figured I'm a moron and an arrogant prick for trying to help a student achieve their goal.

No, I simply said the student was not ready for a WS (see post 6 "The guy was clearly not ready to fly a wingsuit. ")... YOU jumped on a high horse and started acting condescending (see post 7 "That is AMAZING! You can read something on the internet from X miles away and render a diagnosis that fast! ".)

You described a case where a student was clearly over his head so far that his automatic *breathing* response was overridden.

That is a simple and clear sign that the person is not ready for what they are doing.

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Curious how silent you were when an "instructor" failed ot do gear checks and the student died but a Listerine strip has your ass in flames

1. Maybe you should check this thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3442230;page=5;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

And start around post # 115

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"Well, he was under the supervision of an "instructor". (I say "instructor" since I do not know what ratings he had if any and what those qualifications are.)

But he was jumping with an "instructor" for the sole reason to learn WS flying....To me that means the instructor should make sure the guy is at least wearing the equipment correctly since it is such an equipment heavy undertaking.

As an AFFI I am held to higher standard to ensure my student is safe...I do not see why that would not also apply here.

You may disagree....But when you take the title of "instructor" you are held to a higher standard. "

Then maybe look at post 243:

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"I teach for a living in my real world job. I also have an AFF-I, SL-I, Tandem-I. If in my real world job a student of mine screws up doing something that seems so basic that any idiot should remember...*I* am still responsible. When you take the job and title of "instructor" you become responsible for your student.

And gearing up in a WS *IS* part of the instructional block...At least it was when I went through it. So an "instructor" who is supervising a "student" is, IMO, responsible to make sure they put the equipment on correctly while under supervision.

If they are not willing to accept that responsibility, then they should not take the title of "instructor".

Also read posts 248, 251, and 324, Hell, you RESPONDED to me on post 250.

2. The "instructor" in that thread didn't act all high and mighty when someone pointed out they didn't agree with what he did.

So to recap:

* I never called you a moron or an arrogant prick.

* I also don't think you are a moron.

* I DO think you got all pissy when someone made a comment you didn't like.

* I do think that a guy that can't BREATHE on a regular jump should not be doing complex jumps.

* I think that your solution was pretty interesting even if I think it should have been done on a less stressful jump.

* I did respond to the post you claimed I didn't.

You may continue this BS if you like... But do it in a PM please.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jtnesbitt 0]

Are you guys done swinging your dicks around?

I think its a neat trick. As a coach and wannabe instructor i frequent this forum often looking for tips just like this one so that I may learn from others experience.

It's a shame this thread has turned into a dick swinging war. It could have been a cool thread where other instructors chime in on different innovative tricks and trips they have learned though the years.

Maybe some thread trimming is in order to get back on topic.

Besides, neither one of you can win. Everyone has huge dick online.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[TSISK 0]

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Are you guys done swinging your dicks around?

Very well put, as a newbie I wouldnt even consider posting something that i Thought or had an opinion on on this forum, I have when i first joined but wont do that again. Now i just read it to watch the skygods squabble. Dont get me wrong there are a ton of helpful and informative people on this site. Lots of good info if you can ignor the Skygods

[DSE 3]

you're absolutely right. I owe the thread an apology, shouldn't have been drawn in.
Points to take away (IMO);
~Be creative when you've got challenging students.
~Assess your student's abilities to cope with situations.
~Never be afraid to ask a more experienced instructor for help, but be sure he understands the student before any creative opportunities are dismissed.

In reality vs the internet, an instructor will ascertain the mental and physical state of a student. Some students don't know what they don't know (hate that phrase) and the coach or instructor needs to work to help them find the real, yet also understand that a motivated student won't be held back. Find a way to help them move down their road while building in safeguards.

Skydiving is supposed to be first and foremost, safe. Second to that, and not far off is FUN, right?!

[popsjumper 2]

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I think its a neat trick. As a coach and wannabe instructor i frequent this forum often looking for tips just like this one so that I may learn from others experience

Good idea to get this back on track...

Here's something...

As an evaluator for a Coach Course, I like to throw in a small obstacle for the Candidate. It's not an official part of the evaluation but it does go a long way toward helping the candidate be a better Coach.

Part of the Eval jump is having the student do some elementary spotting by sticking his head out the door looking for traffic, clouds and the DZ.

During the gear-up, I express some reservation about sticking my head out the door and keep at it all the way to exit. For example:
- Do we really have to stick our head out the door?
- How about YOU spot and I'll take your word for it?
- I really don't like sticking my head out the door.

The reason for this? To see if the candidate is going to address student fears and how he does it.

Candidate 1: Spent the entire time up until exit trying to minimize the student 's concerns with comments like:
- Aw...there's nothing to be afraid of.
- People do it all the time, you shouldn't be afraid.
- Suck it up and just do it.

Candidate 2: Came up with a solution on the aircraft without discovering the root cause of the fear.

Candidate 3: Spent time on the ground before boarding ferreting out the root cause (fear of falling out) and offering three helpful things that could alleviate that door fear.

Which one do you think would possibly be the best coach?

So the trick was to get them thinking about student perceptions and how to address them without making the students feel like pussies or idiots.

Yes, I had a talk with Candidate 1 about addressing student concerns.


As an aside to DSE:
One of our AFFIs has anti-gravity pills (tic-tacs) for the climb to altitude. And of course they are given out in plenty of time to be gone by exit.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Scrumpot 1]

I'm still surprised and scratching my head here just a bit, (even after reading all the "dick-swinging", which I've also actually found quite interesting - and contrary to some observers consternations, actually taken value away from even that!) over how a student could have actually believed that a common, ordinary Listerine fresh-breath strip - could actually somehow be a mystical magical "breathing strip". I find myself wondering if I might not also have some even further reservations or concerns over the mental capacity, and therefore potential actual performance capabilities (especially if now heaven forbid something MORE just happened to also go wrong during this jump) of such a student who could be clearly "fooled" so easily.

I dunno. Just another thought/perspective. ...And to think, that he even continued to ask for, and count on these "magical" (my word, I appreciate you did not use this, Spot) "breathing strips" being made available to him on even (10?) further multiple subsequent jumps too!

I dunno. Does that give anyone else in here also, any reservations at all, or cause for pause? Maybe it's just me - but I can also see Ron's side as well, that maybe, just maybe this guy was not fully capable either (as indicated by this) necessarily, to effectively handle any further layered added complication to what he was doing at that point, and thank goodness further unforeseen additional complications did not also arise... that a magical breath-strip could not address.

Maybe this is a little devil's advocacy here (yes Ron, you are the devil ) ...but I just can't help but to also at least ask myself sincerely - some of the same questions. And see SOME value actually too, in BOTH sides of this "argument".

FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

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Candidate 1: Spent the entire time up until exit trying to minimize the student 's concerns with comments like:
- Aw...there's nothing to be afraid of.
- People do it all the time, you shouldn't be afraid.
- Suck it up and just do it.

Candidate 2: Came up with a solution on the aircraft without discovering the root cause of the fear.

Candidate 3: Spent time on the ground before boarding ferreting out the root cause (fear of falling out) and offering three helpful things that could alleviate that door fear.

So you're saying in your analogy, that it is your assessment that DSE as an instructor, with this situation presented to him, performed as in your #2 example illustration above?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[DSE 3]

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"breathing strips" being made available to him on even (10?) further multiple subsequent jumps too!

More like 3-4 jumps, and it had become a joking matter by the 3-4th jump. He was barrel rolling, gainer exits, and all sorts of "normal" stuff (that we don't move on to until the belly flight is solid from exit to deployment) by jump 10. I suspect the strong mint in his throat changed up how the air felt to him, maybe it cleared a nasal passage, maybe it just gave off a "clean fresh feeling."

A massive mountain is being made out of a molehill, and I sincerely regret thinking that the concept might be of benefit to anyone that wasn't in-person. Kinda like the president making an off-hand comment and then CNN, MSN, etc spend 3 days talking about the psychological reasons that the president likes red vs green jellybeans.
Pops got it, it's just a focus mechanism that allows a student to do his task once an obstacle has been removed.

Kinda weird how that stuff works, but it does.
People use "talismans" of one kind or another all the time, and if a minor diversion such as a tic-tac or breath strip helps overcome a minor issue, all I can say is "GREAT!"
When I was going through my AFF course, I had my own idiosyncracy that made the examiner laugh at me, puzzled him (and the evaluators) but it worked.

[popsjumper 2]

Nope.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 0]

I have to believe that the inventor of those strips went to college in the 70s, and has a sense of humor. OK, back to our show.

[popsjumper 2]

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A massive mountain is being made out of a molehill,

I agree. While Ron does have a point about mental preparedness, I, personally, don't think it applies to this particular situation.

Obviously, the guy was performing well and had been doing so in the past in spite of the breathing "issue".
I put "issue" in quotes because I don't see it as a major obstacle to performance. Hell, I can't count the number of jumps I've been on where I was holding my breath the entire jump...especially those bigways where one doesn't know all the people on it and how they are going to fly.

Does in-air breathing help with relaxation?
Does relaxation enhance flying?
Well, of course! But that doesn't mean not breathing is a detriment to the point of safety.

I can't count the number of AFF students who performed flawlessly and then mentioned breathing on the debrief.

Besides, breathing issues are not always caused by fear nor are they always related to preparedness.

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...and I sincerely regret thinking that the concept might be of benefit to anyone that wasn't in-person.

C'mon, DSE. Don't let a little internet sparring deter you. You've thicker skin than that...I know first hand.


Keep it coming and damn the torpedoes!

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When I was going through my AFF course, I had my own idiosyncracy that made the examiner JM laugh at me, puzzled him (and the evaluators)

I had one too just starting out during my beginning S/L course in '77. It was called a severe right-hand turn. Didn't get it mastered until jump 15 or so.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[timmyfitz 0]

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but I can also see Ron's side as well

Ron may have a point but I quit reading his responses once his ego took over and common sense slipped away.

[jtnesbitt 0]

Maybe my post was a bit to aggressive, i meant it to be amusing and lighten the mood while getting the thread back on track.

At any rate, as i mentioned before I thought it was a neat trick. I didnt interpret the story to mean that the guy actually thought the strips helped him breath, but i interpreted it to work as reminder, as well as a way to get him to relax. Not only do you have the absurdness of it helping someone relax, but having that strong minty residue in their mouth might have been the reminder they needed to breath.

As dumb as that sounds, it happens. I was a competitive swimmer in high school so every now and then i find myself holding my breath when i am concentrating. When i starting learning to freefly my coach starting taking big gulps of air once on a dive. I couldnt figure out what he was doing until i realized i was holding my breath and as soon as i took a big breath i relaxed and everything clicked.

I had another instructor give me a cool trick to use with a student who needed to relax. I had a student that knew what they were doing, and had the skills, but got real anxious about wanting to do the dive absolutely perfect. Because of this they were very tense in freefall. The instructor told me to have to student close in on me after exit, and stick their tongue out at me and geek the camera, then we would continue with the dive. It worked really well as the student wasnt expecting me to be making faces back at them and their body position was much more relaxed and improved.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[Scrumpot 1]

Like Ron - I was not there. Which is why with my post, I was merely ASKING. Taking my post as anything more than just that - wanting to dig a little deeper (or try to, for someone who was also not there) and maybe understand a little more vis-a-vis the disparate points of view being expressed (no matter who they are between), and/or thinking I also had any "agenda" - would be a mistake. Just "for the record".

I think DSE's reply adequately answered my concerns, and I still, personally at least got some value out of the differing opinions. Maybe it was not the intent of the OP to delve "so deep", but oh well - like I say... I at least still, got some value out of it all anyway. FWIW.

Thanks Douglas - for the further information, insight and clarification!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[roostnureye 2]

can somebody call captain hindsight please!

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[Scrumpot 1]

LOL. Yeah, okay. I know.... (see attached)

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[PiLFy 0]

This is getting really old. DSE made a useful discovery. He shared that in the most appropriate place: here. Ron's first reply was out of line. He only went downhill from there. I, like others here, stopped reading his posts altogether when they turned childish. If you weren't there? You don't know squat.

You want to play devil's advocate, Scrumpot? Fair enough. The student wasn't fooled. He wasn't terrified, either. He was nervous. That's only natural. He wasn't so scared he forgot to breathe. He'd developed a bad habit of never breathing in free fall. That bad habit was being continued into his WS training. DSE found a novel way of helping him to finally break a bad habit. I'm sure other instructors/students will benefit from his sharing that. I seriously doubt the student believed they were magical breathing strips. Those strips have a strong mint taste that goes through your sinuses. Just like menthol cough drops. They do promote breathing.

The term "Monday Morning Quarterback" is derogatory for a reason. It's given to someone who wasn't there. Who doesn't have all the facts, or the context. Ron clearly had an agenda. The facts of this teaching encounter speak for themselves. Nice job, DSE.

[Ron 7]

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Ron's first reply was out of line.

Saying that a guy that can't breathe in freefall on a regular jump is not ready for a more complex jump is out of line?

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Ron clearly had an agenda.

Maybe, but you and others seemed to have missed it.... Pops jumper got REALLY close when he explained the three coach students that were given a problem.

Me, I tend to think that a person who is exhibiting signs of being stressed should not be given additional complex tasks....

Yeah, I guess that is just crazy talk and WAY out of line.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Scrumpot 1]

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If you weren't there? You don't know squat.

Never said I did. But I am an instructor, within the instructors forum, ASKING QUESTIONS, making observations - and attempting to further LEARN. Guess WE should not bother doing this then, or even try to consider multiple POTENTIAL PERSPECTIVES, right?

I should have just come to you 1st and exclusively. You've got it ALL figured out.

Good for you.
Welcome to the sport, and welcome to the forums.

Wanna give me even just a little more details as to who you are, so next time I won't clearly make the same mistake(s) of asking any questions, throwing out any suppositions (fully appropriate to do in this forum - hello - BTW) and instead I'll just come straight to you personally, for all the answers!

Tell, me - why should we even bother then, if there is always only ONE opinion, perspective, or point of view that is valid? You want all your instructors to be nothing but blind lemming "yes-men"? No need to answer that. We already know clearly where you stand. - You're right. We should all close our minds, and just STFU.

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Ron clearly had an agenda.

Gee, I didn't get that. That went so obviously, well over my head. - Thanks for straightening me out on that one.

EDIT TO ADD: Maybe you didn't see my post (#39) above, before you decided to just spout off your authoritative "smack-down" reply?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[DSE 3]

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Me, I tend to think that a person who is exhibiting signs of being stressed should not be given additional complex tasks....

I understand your position, Ron.
Next time I see a student exhibiting signs of stress just before deployment after 90 seconds of freefall, I'm gonna make him get back in the aircraft and ride it down.

[Baksteen 84]

C'mon guys.. Cut it out. We all got the student's best interests at heart. Now kiss and make up.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[format 0]

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Now kiss and make up.

In wingsuits and breathless, on video!

What goes around, comes later.

[cpoxon 0]

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Me, I tend to think that a person who is exhibiting signs of being stressed should not be given additional complex tasks....

I understand your position, Ron.
Next time I see a student exhibiting signs of stress just before deployment after 90 seconds of freefall, I'm gonna make him get back in the aircraft and ride it down.

I'm with Ron. You said he was exhbiting signs of stress (ergo not breathing) on the tracking jump. I would have sorted that before moving onto a more complex skydive.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[rehmwa 2]

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Ron's first reply was out of line.

Read the thread -

IMO - Ron's first reply was fine and not escalatory at all - "the student isn't ready for WS", nothing else. DSE responded defensively/sarcastically and then neither would back off. So what? I'm not surprised that good instructors are serious and strong willed.

However, DSE's 'trick' was a good one, so we learned from that (e.g., think outside the box when dealing with student issues - it's not all in the SIM by any means).

Ron's point that drilling into an indication of discomfort or nervousness to figure out the problem is worth the pursuit. And, correcting those issues in a less stressful/complicated environment is also a lesson learned.

So I, frankly, reinforced some good lessons from the thread because of the dialogue. Forget about the tone. The content is what matters.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Scrumpot 1]

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C'mon guys.. Cut it out. We all got the student's best interests at heart. Now kiss and make up.

But this is like the most "action" we've actually gotten in a long time, in an instructors (topical) thread! Much more of this, and the darn thing is gonna have one of those flames icons next to it, like something outa bonfire or SC.

Why so many 3rd party "observers" (thread lurkers) seem to have their panties in a bunch is beyond me. Spot is a big boy. He can handle it, and certainly has the capability (and should be allowed to) either stand or not, behind his own words (post) - he already has. And besides - again, IMHO - at least the substance of the discussion has value, and having differing perspectives has merit.

Isn't that the whole point behind having a discussion, or these very forums here even - in the very 1st place?

A wise person (certainly not me - and I don't know who to attribute this paraphrased quote to) once said that: "If you've got 5 people in a room all agreeing with you - then you've got exactly 4 entirely unnecessary (or is it useless?) people there."

coitus non circum - Moab Stone