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jonathan.newman

Using toggles during linetwist

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When I teach a first jump course, the solution to linetwist is always "spread risers, kick out of the twist".

This weekend, I had my first linetwist under an Icarus 365 tandem. Then I saw this video of Brian Germain using the toggles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-17AHJQQ8fA to get out of a linetwist.

Has anyone done this? Do you need a high performance elliptical to do it? Is a docile canopy too docile? What about steering lines getting stuck once you pull them?

Jonathan

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When I teach a first jump course, the solution to linetwist is always "spread risers, kick out of the twist".

This weekend, I had my first linetwist under an Icarus 365 tandem. Then I saw this video of Brian Germain using the toggles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-17AHJQQ8fA to get out of a linetwist.

Has anyone done this? Do you need a high performance elliptical to do it? Is a docile canopy too docile? What about steering lines getting stuck once you pull them?

Jonathan

I now use the "push risers together, kick out of linetwist" technique.
For me, it now works much faster (I fly canopies 140 and bigger) on the last three times I tried. It might someday be the preferred student training technique. More study is needed in how universally this technique works, from big to small canopies.

See this thread
A better way out of line twist!

Either way, once you're swooping small parachutes (i.e. 100 square feet and less) it seems to become almost impossible either way anyway: cutaway irregardless if it's accelerating spinning linetwists where you're already on your back with risers pinning your chin to chest...

Germain did an interesting experiment from a high altitude, but not applicable to students -- the push technique is safer than Germain's method, which wouldn't be applicable to students anyway (he did it on a small canopy and lost a lot of altitude).

Don't believe me or these guys? Bring your 3-year-old to the playground. While you're there, go on the swings. Twist up the swing into linetwists. Pull the chains apart. Twist up the swing again into the same number of linetwists. Push chains together. Notice how it gets out of linetwists MUCH faster if you push together the chains? Bingo!

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Push chains together. Notice how it gets out of linetwists MUCH faster if you push together the chains? Bingo!



I'll try that - seems to make sense - as long as the twisting up has stopped. Seems that pulling them apart will stop the twisting quicker though.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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One problem I can see with teaching students to push the risers together is it will increase the likelihood of it twisting up the other way. Pulling them apart ensures the risers spread after the last one comes out. I think teaching students to push initially and then pull is a bit too complex.
It may however, be something to mention around the A license safety review or sport canopy briefing.

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I've seen my BASE mentor do it when he had one line twist. He unspun it remarkably fast but it was also a very docile canopy loaded between .6 and .7
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Has anyone done this? Do you need a high performance elliptical to do it? Is a docile canopy too docile? What about steering lines getting stuck once you pull them?



I'd say it's too risky maneuver for you to experiment with.
That is, considering your number of jumps.

But, don't take my word for it
What goes around, comes later.

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Thank you all for pointing me in a new direction. This was a tandem jump, loaded at 1.0, with a fully inflated, square, and level canopy, only we were flying backwards because we were twisted up about 4 times. I had plenty of altitude, but the problem was we were flying away from the DZ. I couldn't make a riser turn, and I was afraid to make a toggle turn. It was shaping up to be the least dramatic cutaway ever.

By the time I kicked out of it, I was exhausted. I will try pushing the risers together if the same situation happens again.

Has anyone done toggle turns under a stable, but twisted canopy? Tandem?

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I have used a toggle turn to fly out of line twist on a tandem canopy 4 times. I started with just appling a little toggle to make sure I pulled the right one and once I had the right one pulled hard and the canopy untwisted it's self. I also have tried this a couple of other times where it did not work, one the line twist were too tight to pull the toggle down the other when I pulled the toggle we just did a turn. There are two other methods I know of to get out of line twist one is to bring the twist down into the risers by twisting the risers together( I have had this work well too). The other is to kick and if that does not work have the student kick with you.
Kirk
He's dead Jim

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It's standard practice on a tandem main, to the point that at my DZ if a cuttaway canopy is found with the toggles stowed, the TM will be thoroughly made fun of.

On a sport main, especially a highly loaded one, I would not be spending time trying to figure out toggles. Brian Germain's video is great evidence why, a spinning sport main burns through altitude quickly, and screwing with toggles can take a long time to figure out right. Great if you've got 13,000 feet, but if you're burning through 2000 then you need to act quicker.

I am curious about pinching risers together, and may try that on the next occasion. :)

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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I started with just appling a little toggle to make sure I pulled the right one



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I would not be spending time trying to figure out toggles



Guys, it's a peace of cake to KNOW which toggle will untwist the canopy (in a blink of an eye)!

There are potential dangers to it as you may untwist it so fast to make a counter twist. If you are not ready for that - don't even try.
What goes around, comes later.

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i did some (ground) experiments for this purpose B|

1) pulling the risers apart tightens the twist and results in moving the twisted points up from the risers. by kicking with your legs this (tightened) twist is actually used as "point of force" where from the turn is initiated and the twist is resolved.

2) pushing the risers loosens the twist which also results in lowering the twist - the twisted points come closer to the risers. This movement of the twisted points initiates the turning (of parachutist) and twist resolution.

conclusion: if your risers are not involved in the twist pushing the risers might be an option. if the twist involves the risers pulling the risers will be more efficient. That's probably the reason why we are all learned to pull the risers apart and not to push them.

back to the topic... if the risers are involved in the twist toggles are also in that twist and thus not accessible.

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Squeezing the risers has done well for me a few weeks ago...this is one of the three line twists from openings ive had in about 2000 jumps. So i dont know how the other way works where you spread them apart very well!

If you think about it when you try to untangle twisted lines...i you pull them apart it pretty much locks it up and wont let it spin...if you bring the 2 lines closer together then they spin freely!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msVsZDzJltc

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on my static line jumps, 4 out of 5 I had a twist. the first one was on the second static line jump. The begin of the twist was a bit lower than my face. The end of the twist was so high that chute could not inflate. I was falling with the speed close to free fall...

first I tried to pull the risers but for my feeling they were extremely tight. I checked the hight... 2800... I tried once more, but this time I used all my power and kicked as crazy. after few moments it started to "turn". There were at least 8 twists in it. And finally the twist was resolved... slider came down and chute was fully open.

on the subsequent jumps I had twists again but they were "only" 3-4 times twisted. And I always solved them with pulling the risers apart.

On tandem jumps is pushing the risers maybe the better option since kicking must probably be much harder than for single's chute.

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i did some (ground) experiments for this purpose B|

Did you do it on the ground with a fully inflated parachute?

Reportedly, it is more effective in the air than tests on the ground because of the 'spread' force of a parachute that is already open (or badly wants to open). By pushing risers together, you lower the position of the twists, and make it much more effective for the spread-force of an open parachute (above the twists) to untwist from above, because the twist becomes looser at the point nearer the canopy.

The spread force is VERY powerful -- likely in the neighborhood one or two orders of magnitude more powerful than the human strength of pushing or pulling risers. The human pushing together risers below the twists, causes a corresponding major amplification of the spread force above the line twists. Let the parachute do the untwisting for you.

Because of this, that means the bigger the parachute, the more effective. (though someone on dropzone.com reported successful recovery from spinning line twists with the push-risers-together technique ... but try at OWN RISK! It's useless anyway if the lintwists are now pinning your chin to chest. Chop...)

Ground tests are good, but anecdotes report it being more effective in the air, because of this 'spread force'.

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When I teach a first jump course, the solution to linetwist is always "spread risers, kick out of the twist".

This weekend, I had my first linetwist under an Icarus 365 tandem. Then I saw this video of Brian Germain using the toggles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-17AHJQQ8fA to get out of a linetwist.

Has anyone done this? Do you need a high performance elliptical to do it? Is a docile canopy too docile? What about steering lines getting stuck once you pull them?

Jonathan

note he says it took him 80 secs to get out of that, under that wing he surely would've splattered all over the ground if he deployed at a normal opening altitude
Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

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It's standard practice on a tandem main, to the point that at my DZ if a cuttaway canopy is found with the toggles stowed, the TM will be thoroughly made fun of.



Whatever the circumstances of the cutaway, that is an extremely stupid response.

No one should ever be criticised for electing to cutaway...they are the ones in the situation at the time making the decision that will save them and their rider.

People have been killed because they took such criticism on board to the extent they didn't cutaway on a subsequent jump when they should have for fear of ridicule.

Your DZ obviously has more than its fair share of morons.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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