Advising Students to "cut-away" via ground radio command

[Ron 7]

Hell... I'll tell you I have done it and seen it done.

Many years ago I was working at a SL DZ and the first student out had a line over. It was pretty clear there was a problem since we could see the mal and she was spinning like hell. She was the first one out and I was on the radio. I called the SL JM in the plane and told him to not put out another student (he had already stopped) and I tried to get the students attention. I told her all the usual things about checking her canopy etc..... Finally I just told her to cut away. She never did anything and hit the ground in the spin.

Another DZ years later I was putting out a SL student and he had a line over. I stopped putting out students and the guy on the radio did all the same "check your canopy" stuff.... Finally he told him to cutaway and he had a clean chop and reserve pull.

Now.... Does that mean it is a good idea to brief it? Nope. But I am hesitant to claim I would never tell someone on the radio to do it.

The issue of multiple students on the same radio is a valid issue. The DZ I work at now has several radios on different freq... so it is not an issue there.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[liftedtitan 0]

i know nothing about these different radio systems but have just one question.

if there were to be a multi-channel radio system implemented, would the ground instructor have one transmitter that he/she would select the chennel on? or would it be a multi transmitter deal?

seems like a lot for one person to manage AND have to make sure they are on the right channel etc.

what about using canopy colors as a designation?

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[mchamp 1]

I remember hearing a story where the instructor had 4 aff students in the air. While he was looking for the students he saw that one of them had a lineover. Went to the radio and said "You with the line over, cut away". Next thing he sees 1st student cuts away....chink 2nd student follows as well as the 3rd and finally 4th....chink chink chink...... Instructor.......God D***it son of a B****!

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[Rstanley0312 0]

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First, remember that the comment that started this was by someone who had issues with a particular DZ.
Second, he's posting anonamously.
Third, he obviously has no background or knowledge as an Instructor to make such a claim, especially when the situation he was refering to sounded a lot like one brake not released rather than a spinning malfunction.
Last, as a coach-E and an I-E, I would never recommend (well, almost never I suppose) using the phrase cut-away on the radio.

I will go ahead and tell you that I know him and he is very experienced and has all instructor ratings. He is also a rigger. I am saying nothing either way but letting you know the facts because your assumptions are wrong.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Scrumpot 1]

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seems like a lot for one person to manage AND have to make sure they are on the right channel etc.

what about using canopy colors as a designation?

Here is what we do at one of the dropzones/skydiving schools I instruct at, that I think works particularly well:

- Each instructor carries an FRS radio with him (her) - uniquely frequency-matched to the student we are taking. We have a certain set #, or "blocks" if you will, of standard fixed frequencies (and matching radio-sets, all set in advance) pre-established, to choose from.

- Radios are selected, and matched (and tested/verified) between the students & their instructors as a part of their gearing-up pre-boarding routine.

- Main-side instructor (for 2-instructor level jumps) is usually designated as primary radio operator for the student.

- Student is advised that they will not hear ANY radio commands, immediately upon their opening (the JM's/instructors have to 1st get down themselves) - So IT IS THEIR JOB / FULL EXPECTATION once they have deployed - to do their canopy control checks, as they have been trained, then locate the airport/LZ, and fly to their pre-flight-planned, designated holding "playground" area.

- When instructors land, we expect to find our student either in, or around that holding area. (doesn't always work that way - obviously, but that still does not affect really, this protocol for purposes we are discussing here in any way at all).

- We can then identify our student via their known canopy color, further confirmed with an affirmative command response solicited. For instance: "Okay Joe... Radio check just to be sure you can hear me okay - - let's give me a good solid right turn" (or left turn, whichever might be most appropriate) ...and have them hold that turn as long as needed for you to feel comfortable they are following your instruction. This can also be followed by a sequence of commands if needed, etc.

Voila! ...Each individual student identified - and direct, individual radio communications established!
Each of them, on their own UNIQUE frequency, and each of them also matched-up to their own AFF instructor(s) too!

I've found this "system" - at least for purposes of establishing the effective radio communication protocol - works very well.

Just to give one particular example of radio communications protocol used at one center I happen to have experience with, that I feel effectively works very well. Using this "system" also eliminates all that multiple students all on the same frequency potential confusion, &/or needing to be "juggled" between them, attempting to be "managed" by only one, single (and single-frequency) ground-radio operator.

Again - in my experience... ...Is a "system" that seems to be effective, and in practice, actually really works, very VERY well.

FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 2,395]

Nope. If they have a problem I'll tell them "look at your canopy - check your canopy - if you can't control it execute emergency procedures" (or variations on that theme.) They're there; I'm not.

[Ron 7]

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if there were to be a multi-channel radio system implemented, would the ground instructor have one transmitter that he/she would select the chennel on? or would it be a multi transmitter deal?

Each instructor/student pair has a radio set that is on a single channel.

Say:

Instructor and student #1 on Freq 7
Instructor and student #2 on Freq 4.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[format 0]

This is GREAT!
First hand OnLine watching history repeating on inventing position of Air Traffic Controller

What goes around, comes later.

[obelixtim 100]

Just looking at some of the responses here, and if they are typical commands or radiospeak, some of you talk WAY too much.

Single word commands are best and allow least room for misinterpretation or confusion. " Joe, 360 left" contains all the information necessary for Joe to do a 360 degree left turn. "OK Joe I really want you to do a turn to the left and go around 360 degrees", contains 15 words too many.

A first jumper, pumped full of adrenalin, trying to get his head around what the hell just happened, and needing to get himself safely to the ground really doesn't need someone burbling away in his ear anything unneccessary. Why use twenty words when two or three will do?.

You really only need to use ten or twelve different words throughout the whole jump. Any more and you'll be straining your radio!!!.

Believe me, it makes life way easier......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[spootch 0]

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Just looking at some of the responses here, and if they are typical commands or radiospeak, some of you talk WAY too much.

Single word commands are best and allow least room for misinterpretation or confusion. " Joe, 360 left" contains all the information necessary for Joe to do a 360 degree left turn. "OK Joe I really want you to do a turn to the left and go around 360 degrees", contains 15 words too many.

A first jumper, pumped full of adrenalin, trying to get his head around what the hell just happened, and needing to get himself safely to the ground really doesn't need someone burbling away in his ear anything unneccessary. Why use twenty words when two or three will do?.

You really only need to use ten or twelve different words throughout the whole jump. Any more and you'll be straining your radio!!!.

Believe me, it makes life way easier......

and some students need to be reassured they are "doing great" It helps to instill confidence and trust in themselvs. It also helps them to relax, to know that they are on a path to success. especially the first jump.
I'll agree verbal diahreah doesn't do much good, but theres nothing wrong with reassuring your student .

[ufk22 32]

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First, remember that the comment that started this was by someone who had issues with a particular DZ.
Second, he's posting anonamously.
Third, he obviously has no background or knowledge as an Instructor to make such a claim, especially when the situation he was refering to sounded a lot like one brake not released rather than a spinning malfunction.
Last, as a coach-E and an I-E, I would never recommend (well, almost never I suppose) using the phrase cut-away on the radio.

I will go ahead and tell you that I know him and he is very experienced and has all instructor ratings. He is also a rigger. I am saying nothing either way but letting you know the facts because your assumptions are wrong.

It's not about the ratings, it's about the attitude and the knowledge. It you let attitude overrule knowledge (assuming something here, ratings don't mean knowledge. I know an "I" with 30 years experience who still teaches the "stick out an arm and push" technique when teaching students to turn)

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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First, remember that the comment that started this was by someone who had issues with a particular DZ.
Second, he's posting anonamously.
Third, he obviously has no background or knowledge as an Instructor to make such a claim, especially when the situation he was refering to sounded a lot like one brake not released rather than a spinning malfunction.
Last, as a coach-E and an I-E, I would never recommend (well, almost never I suppose) using the phrase cut-away on the radio.

I will go ahead and tell you that I know him and he is very experienced and has all instructor ratings. He is also a rigger. I am saying nothing either way but letting you know the facts because your assumptions are wrong.

It's not about the ratings, it's about the attitude and the knowledge. It you let attitude overrule knowledge (assuming something here, ratings don't mean knowledge. I know an "I" with 30 years experience who still teaches the "stick out an arm and push" technique when teaching students to turn)

Fair enough but you stated he was not an "I" or you assumed he was not so I was just letting you know that that conclusion was incorrect. I am not weighing in on what you are saying nor am I arguing with you. I am simply letting you know is is very experienced and has been a instructor for a long time. I am also not saying that means anything. I do not need to defend Stratos ... he can do that just fine on his own.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[jtnesbitt 0]

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First, remember that the comment that started this was by someone who had issues with a particular DZ.
Second, he's posting anonamously.
Third, he obviously has no background or knowledge as an Instructor to make such a claim, especially when the situation he was refering to sounded a lot like one brake not released rather than a spinning malfunction.
Last, as a coach-E and an I-E, I would never recommend (well, almost never I suppose) using the phrase cut-away on the radio.

I will go ahead and tell you that I know him and he is very experienced and has all instructor ratings. He is also a rigger. I am saying nothing either way but letting you know the facts because your assumptions are wrong.

It's not about the ratings, it's about the attitude and the knowledge. It you let attitude overrule knowledge (assuming something here, ratings don't mean knowledge. I know an "I" with 30 years experience who still teaches the "stick out an arm and push" technique when teaching students to turn)

Fair enough but you stated he was not an "I" or you assumed he was not so I was just letting you know that that conclusion was incorrect. I am not weighing in on what you are saying nor am I arguing with you. I am simply letting you know is is very experienced and has been a instructor for a long time. I am also not saying that means anything. I do not need to defend Stratos ... he can do that just fine on his own.

Thanks for confirming what we all suspected. Stratostar and dbcooperfan are one in the same. Which is quite amusing since he was arguing and replying to himself in other threads. How pathetic.

Also, the assumption he had no instructors experience was made based on stratostar/dbcooperfan's comments, so regardless of his ratings, he has no business near students based on what he has said across this clusterfuck of threads.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[Scrumpot 1]

Uh-oh. ...There goes this perfectly good () thread now, probably right down the proverbial toilet.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Rstanley0312 0]

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First, remember that the comment that started this was by someone who had issues with a particular DZ.
Second, he's posting anonamously.
Third, he obviously has no background or knowledge as an Instructor to make such a claim, especially when the situation he was refering to sounded a lot like one brake not released rather than a spinning malfunction.
Last, as a coach-E and an I-E, I would never recommend (well, almost never I suppose) using the phrase cut-away on the radio.

I will go ahead and tell you that I know him and he is very experienced and has all instructor ratings. He is also a rigger. I am saying nothing either way but letting you know the facts because your assumptions are wrong.

It's not about the ratings, it's about the attitude and the knowledge. It you let attitude overrule knowledge (assuming something here, ratings don't mean knowledge. I know an "I" with 30 years experience who still teaches the "stick out an arm and push" technique when teaching students to turn)

Fair enough but you stated he was not an "I" or you assumed he was not so I was just letting you know that that conclusion was incorrect. I am not weighing in on what you are saying nor am I arguing with you. I am simply letting you know is is very experienced and has been a instructor for a long time. I am also not saying that means anything. I do not need to defend Stratos ... he can do that just fine on his own.

Thanks for confirming what we all suspected. Stratostar and dbcooperfan are one in the same. Which is quite amusing since he was arguing and replying to himself in other threads. How pathetic.

Also, the assumption he had no instructors experience was made based on stratostar/dbcooperfan's comments, so regardless of his ratings, he has no business near students based on what he has said across this clusterfuck of threads.

I may have replied about the wrong thing all I know is who stratos is. I honest to God have no idea if they are the same person and I actually do not think they are. If I replied or suggested that I did forgive me but seriously I know who stratos is and nothing about DBfan at all.

Edited to add that Stratos is a good instructor IMHO

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[popsjumper 2]

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Here is what we do at one of the dropzones/skydiving schools I instruct at, that I think works particularly well:

We do the same here at the Farm.
Each student has his own radio and frequency.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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It sounds to me like Popsjumper is thinking about an AFF scenario where there is an instructor for each student. When doing an IAD class it is not practical to have 12 ground controllers for a class of twelve, or even 5 ground controllers for a planeload of 5.

...and you would be partially correct. Yes, we do AFF here.

I asked about the numbers thinking that 2-3 in the air would be easily manageable with one radio guy on the ground and maybe cost was preventing that.

However, with a larger number of students in the air as is oftentimes the case with IAD and S/L, I totally agree that would not be practical.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Sounds like you guys have all your ducks in a row.

The attention you give to your student's safety is impressive.

Please don't think I'm against one radio per load.
I'm learning how you guys do it and I'm generating commentary for the benefit of everyone.

When I did static line, we didn't have radios unless you wanted to take your transistor and listen to music.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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When I did static line, we didn't have radios unless you wanted to take your transistor and listen to music.

Heh,heh,heh, My instructors forgot the big red arrow on my third jump.

[tdog 0]

I am not a happy I had to...

But... Yes...

A student opened their parachute and it was flying fine. Then it suddenly started spinning. And it was clear the student would not survive the impact if something was not done as the canopy would have impacted the ground first.

I said a lot of things on the radio with no response. Finally in desperation I said, "Anyone who can hear me, pay attention carefully to make sure I am talking to you. Green canopy, you are spinning fast towards the ground, if you can't control your canopy, cutaway and pull reserve, student's name if you cannot control your canopy cut away and pull your reserve." I repeated this command over and over again until I felt it was too low to offer that option. Then I kept saying, "Green canopy, pull your reserve, green canopy, pull your reserve."

At about 300 feet the canopy came out of the spin and the student swooped the runway downwind with very little flare.

In the debrif, the student did not remember anything about their canopy ride. They had no clue what happened. It was as if they were not even on the skydive. Not a "I think I passed out", but instead, "I don't understand what you are saying, I did that???"

She never came back after I told her I was very concerned because something happened that was very scary and very unsettling and unless she could put together what happened and caused her to forget the entire canopy ride, it was unsafe to continue.

[popsjumper 2]

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When I did static line, we didn't have radios unless you wanted to take your transistor and listen to music.

Heh,heh,heh, My instructors forgot the big red arrow on my third jump.

A red arrow would have been useless under my T-10.
(A radio would have been almost useless, too.)

Well, I could have used it to help determine whether I wanted to PLF forward, backwards or sideways, I guess.


To this day, I firmly believe, I really do believe, that amongst all those patches in the canopy there was some original material. I believe that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,120]

A (lightweight) friend of mine called the steering gores on the T-10 view-changers

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gunsmokex 1]

Thought I'd bump this post up with Safety Day coming up in a couple of months, this post may be 6 yrs old but it got me to think about how we do things at our DZ compared to how others do theirs.

Everyone's home DZ is a little different but ours is small s/l Cessna DZ. I was reading a lot on here about multiple radios/multiple frequencies, multiple jumpers etc. Its pretty simple for us one radio, one student in the sky. When the jumper is on the ground the next student get out of the plane. Sure it cuts into our fun jumping a little but we are able to do it that way. It is the safest way possible no one gets messed up on commands. On the other hand I understand that some DZ may not be able to make separate passes for each student.

Oh and they are jumper #1 #2 #3 or #4, they don't get a name until they have hit freefall then they graduate to an actual name :)

Anyways I thought it was good discussion, it made me think at least about it hard because this summer I will be getting my coach rating and will be running radio eventually this coming summer.

[fencebuster 7]

A few miles down I-81 we do it similarly. If we're running a Cessna, it is one jumper per pass (4 minute go around) for IAD. So that usually puts the first student on the ground by the time the second student exits. We use names; e.g., "Billy, turn right 90 degrees, now." If we had a mal shortly after exit, I would consider telling the single student in the sky to "execute Emergency Procedures". In our training, we stress that as PIC, the student must make these decisions. We spend more time on EPs before every student jump than has been my experience at other DZs and the training so far seems to have worked with a single exception.

If we're running the Navajo and multiple AFF students on the load, I would not make a radio call for fear of having the non-problem student take unnecessary corrective action. We have had three student malfunction issues in 3 years; two properly executed emergency procedures without radio prompting. The third, who was on CAT E, inexplicably and contrary to his training, waited for his AAD to deploy the reserve after his right shoulder separated in freefall and he could not deploy the main with his right hand. He had an approximate 5 second canopy ride, was OK except for the separated shoulder and decided skydiving was not his thing.

BTW, Bob Mehl is doing a Coach Course at our place on 3,4,5,6 March if you are interested.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[chemist 0]

Just don't yell "CUTAWAY!!!" on the ground so a guy on final hears it (as opposed to the guy with a spinning mal somewhere between 2-3000'), then cuts away and dies. I think that youtube video got taken down because it shows a fatality and I can't find it anymore.