Advising Students to "cut-away" via ground radio command

[Scrumpot 1]

In a recent incident thread, it is being suggested that an AFF Instructor is "incorrectly trained", if he/she is not capable of, or able to give CUT-AWAY COMMANDS to students in the air, via ground radio.

Instructors only please - do you agree with this? Or not? Feel free to post narrative to further explain or elaborate on your position on this as well. I am very interested and curious as to seasoned instructors perspectives, as I am a relatively new (2 seasons) AFF Instructor myself - so this position/perspective has now indeed piqued my interest.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[labrys 0]

I would consider telling a student to cut away if I could clearly see a major problem with the canopy and as a last resort to save their life, but only if there was a single student under canopy with radio. If there were multiple students in the air, I wouldn't risk having one with a good canopy panic and cut away because they thought I was talking to them.

Owned by Remi #?

[wmw999 2,121]

I've seen the wrong student cut away under canopy. Fortunately he was at 1500'. There was only one student, but the instructor (who wasn't the instructor of the day) didn't realize it was a newbie jumper under rental gear with the two-out downplane.

Happy ending; the downplane suffered minor injuries, and the student asked why he was told to cut away. He was told 3 times; he said "I could see my canopy was OK, but after they told me three times I figured they could see something I couldn't."

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Heatmiser 0]

I won't tell a student to cut away. I will tell a student to remember his decision altitude.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[D22369 0]

had a student who seemed to have a good canopy, but was really sluggish on the left turns with really fast right turns, once he got around 2k the canopy didnt look quite right, so I reminded him that if it wasnt square that he would need to perform his emergency procedures - ching - away he went, he had a lineover and was trying hard to fix the problem and wasnt paying attention to his altitude.

if the instructor can see a problem and the student isnt moving to cut away I think they should jog thier memory

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[IanHarrop 37]

This past Saturday. I was the FJC Instructor and I was also the guy on Radio advising the First Jump students as they flew their canopies.

Second load of first jumpers:second jumper on the load had slider stuck at least 3/4 of the way up preventing the canopy from opening properly. Although it looked from the ground to be fully inflated, it was obviously too narrow and not open wide. Over the course of a few seconds the canopy was moving in and out at the sides giving the impression that the student had the toggles and was trying to get the slider down. Using the radio I gave the command "Jumper number 2 review your emergency procedures" twice, as I began to say it a third time, the student cutaway and the reserve activated and deployed properly. I then radioed the plane and instructed the pilot to hold jumping. Over the student radio I told the 2nd jumper that he was in a good place and hold in that area while I landed the first jumper, and that I would be back to him soon. I then landed the first jumper, got back to the second jumper and who had a stand up landing on his reserve. I radioed the plane, jumping resumed normally.

During the FJC I specifically state that, as the radio guy, I will not tell them to cutaway on the fear that another beginner jumper on radio will misinterpret and cutaway low. They are instructed that I will tell them to review their emergency procedures with the goal that anyone with radio and under canopy can check out their canopy, and only if there is a problem with it to cut it away. I like classes that are interactive so I stimulate conversation on this topic so that it is fully discussed and understood well.

My belief is that students need to be taught that they "will not" be told to cutaway, only that they will be told to review their emergency procedures, and thats what the radio guy should say. We can't have a student with a good canopy getting ready to land hear "cutaway" and make a bad decision low.

Other details of interest to some:
- Equipment: Manta 288, PD 253 Reserve, Wings student container, RSL, Vigil II Student mode.
- Method: IAD with hanging exit
- Exit Altitude: 3500', Reserve appeared to be open about or above 2500'
- Inspection by a rigger showed no problems with the canopy or lines or slider and the problem was presumed to have been caused by a tension knot.
- Student put both handles in his jumpsuit and brought them down. During the FJC students are told they can just throw the handles away and I won't care, but if they think to put them in their jumpsuit thats good too.
- Third load of FJC students were geared up, waiting for their load and witnessed the event. They loaded the plane when it landed and all jumped successfully.

(edited for spelling)

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[buff 0]

Phraseology is key. There is a big difference when the mind is triggered with the word "cutaway" vs. "emerency procedures".

I used to tell a student via the radio when turning them on final, "feet and knees together and prepare to land." Over the radio, prepare can be confused with flare so I quit saying it.

Emergency procedures should trigger a response of evaluate then take action. Cutaway can only trigger one response. YMMV.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[format 0]

Quote

I would consider telling a student to cut away if I could clearly see a major problem with the canopy and as a last resort to save their life, but only if there was a single student under canopy with radio. If there were multiple students in the air, I wouldn't risk having one with a good canopy panic and cut away because they thought I was talking to them.

Shouldn't you Instructors have a multiChannel transmitter?
I mean this is 2010, it's not 'A expense'.

What goes around, comes later.

[BobMoore 0]

Quote

Shouldn't you Instructors have a multiChannel transmitter?
I mean this is 2010, it's not 'A expense'.

From what I've read recently here there are instructors who can't or aren't willing to remember individual names of the students in the air at any one time, preferring to say Jumper #1 Jumper #2, so how are they going to remember which channel of the radio goes with which student?

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[ufk22 32]

First, remember that the comment that started this was by someone who had issues with a particular DZ.
Second, he's posting anonamously.
Third, he obviously has no background or knowledge as an Instructor to make such a claim, especially when the situation he was refering to sounded a lot like one brake not released rather than a spinning malfunction.
Last, as a coach-E and an I-E, I would never recommend (well, almost never I suppose) using the phrase cut-away on the radio.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[format 0]

The fact that i am not an Instructor is worthless here, that's what I'm saying.

The question stands: Would you yell "CUTAWAY" if you see your student spiraling toward hard-deck and nobody else can hear you but this student?

This is a question for ALL Instructors, if there's a "Yes" answer - make it happen.

What goes around, comes later.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

The question stands: Would you yell "CUTAWAY" if you see your student spiraling toward hard-deck...

At the risk of tainting my own poll results with my reply - I personally take great care to instruct my students, on the ground - either during the FJC, or during my gearing them up/ground-prep with them if I was not the instructor in the FJC - that they should never count on, nor expect explicit 'command' instructions over the radio - Let alone that the radio will even work or be relied upon for anything. I remind them (and yes even refresh them, if needed) that they have (or should have been already) fully trained on their canopy opening assessment and check/control procedures, establishing (and then I review it with them again - make THEM SHOW ME): Their intended flight-pattern/plan, and EP's /confirming decision altitudes. I make it clear that they are pilots in command of their own parachutes once they have opened, and that if they have any misgivings, or doubts about their abilities to handle that in that regard before they go up - that they should NOT. In short, I make it abundantly clear that cut-away/EP/non-cutaway decisions under canopy are SOLELY theirs. I want NO DOUBT that when (if) any of my students ever find themselves in a "situation" or decision-making scenario is upon them - that their minds could even remotely possibly be clouded or hesitant/reliant upon "I should wait till I hear my instructor command me".

What if I am/would be wrong even too? As I cannot (clearly) see whatever is causing their problem (spiralling, in your example) absolutely, and definitively from the ground anyway. I AM NOT THERE. What if cutting away in the situation THEY ARE DEALING WITH (presumably) or have at-hand, would actually WORSEN their situation?

Therefore, it HAS TO BE their decision. And fully understood (and accepted) up front. Before they even go up. I can see no other way.

Telling students "we will tell you what to do" sets a stage and an in my mind, a very BAD premise/scenario for lack of judgment while under canopy.

No, I will NOT yell an instruction to a student via ground radio, under nearly any circumstance that I can at least think of as of this very moment (never say ABSOLUTE NEVER, I suppose - right? ) to "CUTAWAY"!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[format 0]

I'm really trying not to hit hard but
I've seen a student in a two-out downplane..couple of times.

I figure it's a possible waste of life. Yelling "CUTAWAY" in his/her ear, sounds risky but I'd take it.
(if nobody else hears it like a command)

Downplane can break or kill - what is worse than kill?
Touchy matter it is.

What goes around, comes later.

[wmw999 2,121]

Read post #3. The instructor thought he WAS talking to the only student on the load. Just didn't realize that there was also rental gear that was close enough to be taken for the student rig.

I'm no longer an instructor. But I would put telling a student to cut away on the radio extremely low on my list. I'm also loath to say never because life can be very unpredictable.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

I've seen a student in a two-out downplane..couple of times.

Really? Where / when?
Seems to me that there is a lot more going on there, and to be actually ACTIVELY concerned with - than whether or not instructors intend to shout their cutaway commands into a (not-to-be-relied-upon-in-the-1st-place) radio. For sure.

Remember, I did "hedge" too, just a bit. I suppose if I saw one of my students under a 2-out canopy scenario, and they were clearly screaming at the ground as a "clean" downplane under it - and... I was 100% SURE, no doubts AT ALL it was my student - AND... I had direct (independent channel) exclusive radio communications to them - I might (okay, well probably would) scream "cutaway" into the radio at them, under THAT particular extreme circumstance. But I still would not have advance told ANY of my students, EVER - that I was going to do this, or even indicate in any way, any differently than what I've already posted.

Fair enough?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[format 0]

Fair exactly. Thank You.

What goes around, comes later.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Scrumpot hits the nail on the head.
The student must be told that no one will hold their hand after they get out of the plane; THEY must make the decision.
Ian- you tell them you will not tell them to cut away but only to review their emergency procedures. Is it not possible (easily possible) that the student will then interpret a LACK of you telling them just that as a sign that their canopy is OK?

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

Ian- you tell them you will not tell them to cut away but only to review their emergency procedures. Is it not possible (easily possible) that the student will then interpret a LACK of you telling them just that as a sign that their canopy is OK?

They are told that telling them to review their emergency procedures is the most I will say but that I will probably say nothing because I am not there and cannot see their canopy as well as they can as I am thousands of feet away.

Throughout the course they are continuously told that they have to be prepared to make that decision, that no one else will make it for them, and that if they are not prepared to act independently that they should not make a first jump. That we prefer they do something else, either do a tandem, or we'll refund their money.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[popsjumper 2]

Ian, how many students, typically, are there in the air at any one time at your DZ?

(edited to add):
The reason I ask is to find out if it is simply a cost factor the dissuades the use of multiple radios with each student on a different set frequency?

Seems to me that one freq with multiple students is just asking for trouble.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

I was trained not to say cutaway. It could turn into a personal liability issue if things go wrong.

Would I do it? I don't know yet. The need to decide has not arisen as yet. I'd probably go for it if there was an obvious need but only as a last resort after saying my planned "evaluate canopy and review EPs" command spoken in a calm voice.

I have seen AFFIs tell students to cutaway.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[longtall 0]

"cutaway"sounds too much like "it's ok" and visa-versa.

" 90 right, five miles then cut."---Pukin Buzzards

[obelixtim 100]

Talking SL students here, but once under canopy there is no difference to AFF, except perhaps multiple canopies in the air.

Often 4 canopies in the air at once, all on a common channel. The radio man has a pair of powerful binoculars with which he watches the exit and opening.

The students are not told about the radio until immediately prior to the jump, thus have to learn CC from the start.

Commands are kept to a minimum. The radio man NEVER screams or yells a command...normal speaking voice, very few words...e.g. "left" instead of "left turn", all turns being 90 degrees, apart from minor toggle adjustments below 500 feet. Every student is called by name or nickname, before any commands.

In the event of a change in exit order in the plane,(perhaps a refusal) the JM tells the students that they have a new name for a few minutes. (In reality, very rare).

The Student has to check their own canopy, and the first instruction they hear doesn't come till they release the brakes. They then get a "Fred, good canopy, 360 left, or right". This confirms a good canopy for each one. They then know that they will land that canopy.

In the event of a malfunction, the radio man will give the student time to evaluate and deal with the situation. If the decision is not made within a reasonable time, the radio man will instruct the student. "Fred, Look, Grab, Pull". (Single point cutaway reserve activation).

2nd jump, the student can do everything themselves, and the radio man says nothing. 3rd or 4th jump they are off radio.

In a two out scenario, which is the trickiest to deal with, the students are told to assess, but to leave the brakes alone on the reserve if the canopies are side by side, the downplane is now very unlikely, but they must be ready to PLF.

If they have a biplane, they are taught to get both sets of toggles and fly the biplane as one canopy.

Cutting away in a two out situation is risky in my opinion because of the RSL lanyard, which I have seen wrap around the reserve lines (on an experienced jumper) and choke off the reserve. (He landed OK)

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

Ian, how many students, typically, are there in the air at any one time at your DZ?

(edited to add):
The reason I ask is to find out if it is simply a cost factor the dissuades the use of multiple radios with each student on a different set frequency?

Seems to me that one freq with multiple students is just asking for trouble.

I don't think cost is a major factor, we a fairly expense radio system. I looked on-line just before writing this and the cheapest I could find the receivers we use (Motorola Minitor) is about $340 USD. We have about a dozen student radio receivers.

Typically there are at most 3 in the air at one time. At one dz I work at we use a 182 for students, at another we use a 206, but circuits between students still means typically at most 3 students in the air at one time.

Using one radio transmitter, one frequency and jumpers by number has some advantages.
- radio guy deals with only 2 radios, one for students, one for aircraft.
- no confusion about what student is on what channel.
- if the student order is changed in the plane, no confusion on the ground about who is jumper by number

There may be a better way to so this, but this is the system that I have seen used at dropzones I have been at in Canada for a long time.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Andrewwhyte 1]

It sounds to me like Popsjumper is thinking about an AFF scenario where there is an instructor for each student. When doing an IAD class it is not practical to have 12 ground controllers for a class of twelve, or even 5 ground controllers for a planeload of 5.

[SwampGod 0]

Quote

Ian, how many students, typically, are there in the air at any one time at your DZ?

(edited to add):
The reason I ask is to find out if it is simply a cost factor the dissuades the use of multiple radios with each student on a different set frequency?

Seems to me that one freq with multiple students is just asking for trouble.

Working with 2 students in the air at the same time, I have seen no problem with using the same frequency. We created a chart that we clip pictures of the student canopies next to their name, their AFF level, their instructors, expected exit order, desired input under canopy ("help with flare" versus "only if needed," etc).

It's not hard to use student names. If two people share the same name, we notice ahead of time and use their last name. If you forget the person's name, look down to the clipboard, find the picture of their canopy, and you're ready to rock again.

The problems I have with multiple radios or frequencies are functional, not financial. I always bring two radios out with me, in case one fails in the field. If there were 2 or 3 or 4 students on the same plane (multiple passes), this would require at LEAST 4 radios in the field, but possibly 6 or 8 depending on the system used. We have that many radios, but I don't see an easy way to have them all laid out in front of you every time.... especially if you have to move from your base to help a student that's not exactly landing where they should.

So the logical solution would be multiple frequencies, then, right? If the concern is remembering a student name, is there not the same concern with remembering which frequency each particular student is using?

The larger concern with multiple frequencies is that I've had multiple situations where I had to switch commands between students very quickly. We plan to avoid this situation, but shite happens (for example, students start to crowd each other down low):

"Johnny, check your altimeter and start your downwind at 1000 feet, Sally, turn left onto base, Johnny, you're flying away from the pattern turn around, Sally, turn LEFT.... Sally, turn LEFT.... Sally, YOUR OTHER LEFT, Johnny, you need to turn around and start the pattern, Sally, keep turning left, left left, Johnny stay away from the runway, Sally....."

The thought of doing that, and switching frequencies in between each command (or having two radios with two backups) makes me cringe. Is the above situation ideal? Hell no. We generally plan exit order based on wing loading and always train to NOT crowd the pattern.... but you know those silly students.

In addition, multiple frequencies means one more variable to check if the student isn't responding. If I don't get a radio check response ("Ok Bob, now that you've done your control check, please turn right if you can hear me. Bob? Bob? Please turn right, Bob, if you can hear me.")

No response. Is the radio muffled? Turned down? Too far away? Now I have to add "wrong frequency" to the list, which means I'd be tempted to start switching channels.... yuck.

I'm sure there are ways to use a radio with simple pre-programmed buttons or something similar, though I still don't like it for the above reasons. My bigger question is, why is it difficult to use student's names? If they're truly not responsive due to sensory overload, etc, usually saying their name will cut through the mental block heaps better than repeating "Student #1" over and over.

All of the practical aspects aside... I personally think knowing each student's name is.... well... the right thing to do from a human and professional standpoint. But that's largely irrelevant here, I guess.

Thoughts?

-eli