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When to start using an Audible Altimeter

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Good day everyone,

I'm in my first year of being a SL instructor. After my students get their license I still try to do rudimentary coaching until they have about 100 jumps. Since this is a very small Cessna DZ I'm one of the only people they can go to for advice regarding pretty much anything involving skydiving so I want to ask your opinion.

So far I tell my students/freshly licensed skydivers, they should start using an audible altimeter when they reach 100 jumps or more because I feel it is important to develop Altitude awareness and a feeling for free fall time.

Even at a 100 jumps, I sometimes think this is to early especially when starting new disciplines like freefly. This only increases the dependency on technology that can ultimately fail.

On the other hand, they do make skydiving a whole lot safer, and modern audibles are very reliable.

So what do you think ?

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I would vote for jump 26. The reason being that once you have a license, your jumps are no longer planned and focused around you, but focused on the jump.

Until that point, every jump is centered around the student, and planned out with them in mind. The dirt dive inclused break off and pull altitudes, and the freefall activites are all designed to end before break off.

Beyond jump 25, they are likely to be jumping with others, and things will not be centered around them. The potential to get wrapped up in what they're doing goes way up, and nobody on the jump is there to signal them that it's over. Even on a coach dive, the coach is suppsed to track off at break off, and the student gets the hint. Two newbies jumping together will have no 'signal' of any kind if they get wrapped up in turning points.

So an audible helps to provide that signal. Regardless of how the end of the jump is signaled, the jumpers will becoem accustomed to the time frame. In terms of building skills, you should stress that they should see (and read) their altimeter several times during a jump, and during tracking they should take a look at the groudn to train their eyes, but none of that precludes the use of an audible.

People say that audibles fail, but so do people. So what you do is arm yourself with as many 'safe guards' as possible, and hope that none of them fail. If the audible fails, there's always the chance the jumper will perform, and maintain altitude awreness and break off at the right time. With no audible, if the jumper fails, there is no back-up, they just end up down and dirty.

Will every jumper maintain vigilance with regards to altimeter checks? No. Will every jumper look down at break off to train their eyes on every jump? No. Will every jumper make sure to not become dependant on the audible? No.

However, none of that changes the fact that, when used properly, the audible provides another layer of safety and awareness. You cannot let the mis-use of a device by some jumpers dictate the use of that device by all jumpers. Give jumpers the benefit of the doubt, train them in the proper use and assume they'll use it the the right way. What they do after that is their business.

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I always recommend 200 jumps. But nobody listens to me because an electronic logbook is almost as important as a gopro camera. So I recommend setting the breakoff and pull alarms 100 feet low. If they hear the beep and haven't already acted, they weren't altitude aware.

Dave

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You said what I was going to say: right away, to safeguard against loss of altitude awareness.

I believe that most of the low/no-pull fatalities that were a lot more common a generation ago were caused by loss of altitude awareness, more often than not while jumping with others. And the modern-day reduction in that statistic is due to 3 factors: AADs, higher average pull altitudes, and audibles. Yes, training the Eyeball Altimeter is important, to be sure; but stayin' alive is still Job #1. So I see far more up-sides than down-sides to newer jumpers using one as soon as they can afford one.

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I started wearing mine when I started doing 4-way RW (jump 60-something). Sometimes I can't even see my altimeter because it's on my hand that's got a grip where I'm not looking (I still check it between points when possible).

Granted, it's pretty obvious when three people turn and burn that I should probably do the same. :)

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Good day everyone,

I'm in my first year of being a SL instructor. After my students get their license I still try to do rudimentary coaching until they have about 100 jumps. Since this is a very small Cessna DZ I'm one of the only people they can go to for advice regarding pretty much anything involving skydiving so I want to ask your opinion.

So far I tell my students/freshly licensed skydivers, they should start using an audible altimeter when they reach 100 jumps or more because I feel it is important to develop Altitude awareness and a feeling for free fall time.

Even at a 100 jumps, I sometimes think this is to early especially when starting new disciplines like freefly. This only increases the dependency on technology that can ultimately fail.

On the other hand, they do make skydiving a whole lot safer, and modern audibles are very reliable.

So what do you think ?



Hallo IBX,
Danke für diese Frage. I'm a student. I'll be interested to read the replies on this. I was about to buy an Audible after my last jump. I'm usually always altitude aware. Recently, I found myself struggling w/a coach jump. Then, I missed the break-off altitude. After break-off? I learned for myself just what a little distraction can do. I lost altitude awareness again during the track. Unbelievable to me, but it happened. I was barely current when I jumped. So, I didn't recognize how low I was by sight. The best part? It turned out that my altimeter had malfunctioned. It had gotten stuck, & was reading about 1,000 feet too high... Yes, we had checked it on the ride up. I asked the coach about which Audible to buy. He said none until I have 100 jumps. I'm holding off on buying an Optima2 for now. I don't want that to ever happen again. The thing is. I didn't want it to happen the first time, either. To me, $200 is cheap insurance, & peace of mind. I haven't asked the instructors about it yet. Is there a SIM recommendation on this? I can fully understand the guide lines for cameras & wingsuits. This one doesn't make a very good argument for me. Is it possible I'll develop slack habits w/my regular altimeter? Yes, it's possible. Slack beats dead in my book, though. I have faith that I'll always pull unless disabled in free fall. I don't trust that I'll throw soon enough to avoid the AAD firing the reserve into my still-opening main. How many jumps before your eyes are calibrated to recognize 4K from 3K?

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To me, arguing against audibles is kind of like arguing against AAD's.
Nothing wrong with using an audible at any jump number as long as you use it right. Don't set it at breakoff or deployment altitude, set it at "save your life" altitude.
Set it for 2500'. If you hear it and you're not under canopy, one shot at your main (rather than two), then deploy your reserve. If you make it to 50 jumps without hearing it in freefall, set it up 1000". If you make it to 100 jumps without hearing it before deployment, use it normally.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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Had one in student helmet for AFF 1 and had one ever since. Had my own as soon as I bought a helmet. After 102 jumps I've never had it go off without a canopy overhead.

I don't rely on it, but I'll take every level of safety I can get. Maybe starting to jump at 46 gives you a different perspective though.
Ian Purvis
http://www.loadupsoftware.com
LoadUp DZ Management App
[email protected]

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To me, arguing against audibles is kind of like arguing against AAD's.
Nothing wrong with using an audible at any jump number as long as you use it right. Don't set it at breakoff or deployment altitude, set it at "save your life" altitude.
Set it for 2500'. If you hear it and you're not under canopy, one shot at your main (rather than two), then deploy your reserve. If you make it to 50 jumps without hearing it in freefall, set it up 1000". If you make it to 100 jumps without hearing it before deployment, use it normally.



I agree. Audibles are not merely conveniences, they are potential life-savers. I'll say again: training is important, but saving your life is always, always Job #1. I think it's completely backwards thinking for a novice jumper to deprive himself (or be counseled to deprive himself) of a life-saving advantage merely for "training" purposes.

Loss of altitude awareness doesn't always occur only on group jumps. That's especially so for novices, who tend to try out or practice all sorts of "new stuff" on solo jumps, and might get overly hyper-focused.

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I agree. Audibles are not merely conveniences, they are potential life-savers. I'll say again: training is important, but saving your life is always, always Job #1. I think it's completely backwards thinking for a novice jumper to deprive himself (or be counseled to deprive himself) of a life-saving advantage merely for "training" purposes.

Loss of altitude awareness doesn't always occur only on group jumps. That's especially so for novices, who tend to try out or practice all sorts of "new stuff" on solo jumps, and might get overly hyper-focused.



Hummm... You have a point, but I still think getting novices to use an audible too soon is... too soon. Many will rely on it even more if they got used to it early, and one day or another it will fail to beep.

If the regular altimeter is their only mechanical tool, there is less probability they'll forget to look at it.

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To me, arguing against audibles is kind of like arguing against AAD's.
Nothing wrong with using an audible at any jump number as long as you use it right. Don't set it at breakoff or deployment altitude, set it at "save your life" altitude.
Set it for 2500'. If you hear it and you're not under canopy, one shot at your main (rather than two), then deploy your reserve. If you make it to 50 jumps without hearing it in freefall, set it up 1000". If you make it to 100 jumps without hearing it before deployment, use it normally.



and
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I agree. Audibles are not merely conveniences, they are potential life-savers. I'll say again: training is important, but saving your life is always, always Job #1. I think it's completely backwards thinking for a novice jumper to deprive himself (or be counseled to deprive himself) of a life-saving advantage merely for "training" purposes.

Loss of altitude awareness doesn't always occur only on group jumps. That's especially so for novices, who tend to try out or practice all sorts of "new stuff" on solo jumps, and might get overly hyper-focused.



Thanks so far everyone for the great replies.


I was thinking of a similar training approach. It also coincides with Andy9o8's opinion, which I cannot refute with any credible argument.

Now if we think this further, the jumper will ultimately use his audible altimeter in the "correct" fashion(Seperrate, pull, 2000ft;-)). How complacent, waiting for the beep or the break off of ones accomplices, does one get ?

I know that I've been alerted at least on one or two occasions by my own audible, or the break off of my friends, hearing my own audible a fraction of second later.

Since we all have audibles on freefly jumps, I seem to think, we have the same amount of audibles as we have jumpers, how likely are they all to fail ?

I think this may contribute to a certain amount of complacency at a more advanced stage in ones career.

Now is it safer for everybody to set their audibles to "oh shit" altitude ? Definitely not.

As far as I can put this together with some personal experience and your input, it would be the to train with the altimeter set to "oh shit" mode(Doing solos, coach jumps, and maybe briefed beginner jumps).
Using it the correct fashion once one has progressed to a certain point, say perhaps 100 jumps or proving to maintain altitude awareness in general.

PiLFy's(gerne ;-)) experience proves that an audible would help students. Its also serves as a backup for failing primary gear.

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Sorry for my english. My instructor put in my protec an audible in my 18 jump. I learn by static line and in that jump was the first in I will open looking The altimeter. Had to open at 4000 feet and put the alarm in 3500. It worked for me in that jump and in the next.

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The way I relay it to my students is this:

"your first purchase in skydiving should be a three-tone audible altimeter"

Back in the day, before the creation of that device, my advice was:

"your first purchase in skydiving should be a properly fitting jumpsuit"

I see no reason whatsoever to NOT use an audible, even for AFF students. One of the military contracts I do is to train the Canadian forces to freefall (Trenton, Ontario). Those students all use audibles.

I don't think any of you who would argue against audibles has probably ever worked a program where they are in use from the beginning.

Chuck Blue
D-12501, AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA

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What altitudes are they set for?

I have no problem with using audibles early if they are used as a backup, "you messed up, now pull" warning. But that's not how I see them being used. I see "listen for beep, then turn and track." Using an audible like that, especially with little experience, is a recipe for disaster.

Dave

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I've had one on every jump from AFF1. For the first 50 or so it was set 500' below deployment altitude, with the goal of never hearing it before i had deployed. Only failed once. I am lucky enough to be at a dropzone that has loaner helmets with audibles that anyone that choses to can use.

After 50ish I went to the standard breakoff, deploy, oh shit settings. Heard the Oh shit tones for the first time the other day on a long sniveler, certainly gets your attention real quick!!! I don't rely entirely on it, but at the same time I rarely look at my wrist mount below 6000, between my eyes and the audible I don't feel the need.

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I don't rely entirely on it, but at the same time I rarely look at my wrist mount below 6000, between my eyes and the audible I don't feel the need.



Good that you are training your eyes, but it sounds scary to me that you rarely look at your wrist mount below 6K. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are using your audible to train your eyes (as in "If I get into the beeps, my eyes were wrong.")

I would expect it to go the other way. As you develop your internal clock maybe you check it less frequently at the top end of the dive, but monitor with diligence at the bottom end.

I like the idea posted by others that you set it a couple hundred feet below pull altitude, and know that if you hear it before deploying you need to pay better attention to altituide. Also agree that as soon as a new jumper is licensed and jumping with others, where they are not the central focus of the dive, an audible is a very good idea.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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Just thought I'd add this to the mix: I'm sure audibles are excellent backups at various jump levels. I use a chest-mounted altimeter for FS. I have a hand-mount for uncomplicated or solo jumps. I came up via static line and rounds, and during the student phase, I was taught to eyeball the ground on the long rides up in Cessnas. That's where altitude awareness began for me. Trust your instruments only so far.
SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

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I call bullshit on not being able to use them from day dot.

Nobody should ever rely on an audible for altitude awareness, just like nobody should ever rely on an AAD to open thier parachute, both are back up devices.

Those that beleive it is not reasonable to use them from your very first solo jump, plase tell me what changes at the point that you think you shold be abe to use them?

Complacency?

I had one in my helmet from the moment I graduated off static line, and I have never depended on them. they are a back up. A couple of time I did lose altitude awareness and my dytter made me aware of that.

That is what they are intended for, and that can be a probem on you very first solo jump.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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