How do you teach Emergancy Procedures (Cutting Away)

[Ron 7]

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I was originally taught to open the Capewell covers, hook my thumbs in the rings, look at my reserve handle on the belly wart, and pull the rings simultaneously; then go for the reserve.

I meant with the three ring system

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,119]

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When I got a three-ring, I had about 400 jumps and a couple reserve rides, and just decided what I thought made sense.

No one really taught me. I was already a rigger and a jumpmaster, and, frankly, really did just decide after thinking about it and probably talking to a couple of people.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davelepka 4]

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The reason for only one hand on reserve is this...
First of all the reserve is very unlikely to ever be a hard pull, and I'm not wanting to drop the cutaway pud either.

I'm not worried about being able to locate the reserve pud

No matter what the situation, forget about the cutaway handle in terms of setting your emergency procedures. Not losing that handle should literally be NOWHERE in your mind or thought process in terms of being in an actual emergency, or even when planning for one. If you include it in your planning and practice, there is a chance it will rear it's ugly head during an actual emergency, and that's the last thing you should be concerned about.

The cutaway handle is actually the one compoment that you can lose in a cutaway that a rigger can replace for you from stock. The freebag i ssized for the container, the reserve ripcords length is defined by the size of the harness, but any stock cutaway handle can be trimmed to fit your rig. Forget about it.

Is your post correct when you say you have a reserve 'pud'? That being a soft reserve handle? If so, you really need to rethink your loigc that the 'reserve is unlikley to be a hard pull'. Without the mechanical advantage of a D-ring or loop you can pu tyour hand through, you're counting on the strength of your hand to connect your hand to the reserve pin. In the event of an inury to your hand/arm (this is an emergency, anything is possible), the pull could become very hard, not due to closing loop tension, but due to your ability to grip the handle.

Beyond that, soft handles are more likely to fold under the harness or part of your jumpsuit.

I'm going to hazzard a guess that you modified your EP's on your own, after your student training. For the above reasons, I would suggest you reconsider your approach, and stick to the basics.

[popsjumper 2]

I thought this we very telling and very funny:

The OP in post 39:
"...using the one hand per handle method, peeled my cutaway and started to pull, as I had also started to peel my reserve,..."

The next biggest 2-hand proponent in Post #13:
"I grabbed right and left, peeled the Velcro on the cutaway pud, and removed the reserve ripcord from its keeper pocket. Then found out I couldn't budge the cutaway handle...."



Usually, it's the jumper and not the procedure that's wrong.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

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Beyond that, soft handles are more likely to fold under the harness or part of your jumpsuit.

Happened to me.... The only cutaway I have that I used both hands to find the cutaway.

Here is that story

But if it had been my reserve, I would most likely be dead.

This is one reason I (R) look/grab, (L) look/grab, ARCH, (R) peel punch, and when I feel/see the canopy go I peel punch (L).

I know very few people that can look at the reserve while having a mal and still arch.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

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I thought this we very telling and very funny:

The OP in post 39:
"...using the one hand per handle method, peeled my cutaway and started to pull, as I had also started to peel my reserve,..."

The next biggest 2-hand proponent in Post #13:
"I grabbed right and left, peeled the Velcro on the cutaway pud, and removed the reserve ripcord from its keeper pocket. Then found out I couldn't budge the cutaway handle...."



Usually, it's the jumper and not the procedure that's wrong.

To be fair, I don't think the OP would deny that he was wrong, but his feeling seems to be that the procedure itself allows for that type of error. If you were to use two hands on each handle, that type of error is eliminated.

Of course, the remaining error is that you put both of your hands on the wrong handle, and deploy the reserve before pulling the cutaway.

However, I do recall a recent thread about a jumper using the two handle technique who had an out of sequence cut-away and reserve deployment. I think the story was similar, that he had grabbed both handles (and possibly peeled both), and went to pull the cutaway but only pulled far enough for the short cutaway cable to release the one riser, and then either due to the 'jolt' of releasing a riser, or reflex action from practicing EPs, he pulled the reserve with one main riser still attached to the harness.

I may be biased, as I was taught the two hand technique, but for students I think it's the superior method. Having one hand on each handle does leave the door open for pulling the wrong handle first. If you drill the two hand technique, and it's always 'right side then left side', you stand a pretty good chance that they'll get to the correct side first. If they can accomplish that, then the chance for an out-of-sequence EP is zero.

Also, if you consider that all of the ground training with a training harness is simulating the handles in a 'no canopy out' harness position, and that in the case of an actual mal, the handles will be in a different position, the student will have to locate the handles in their new position, higher up due to the harness shifting up from a (partially) deployed canopy. If they are only locating the one handle in the new position, it will take less time. Once the cutaway has been pulled, the harness (and reserve handle) will return to the configuration they are familiar with, identical to the training harness. Locating the reserve handle will fall back to 'reflex action'.

Additionally, with the requirement for an RSL on a student rig, and the growing acceptance of RSLs and Skyhooks, two hands on each handle looks even better. There's a fair chance that the one handle will take care of the whole job, so make that the focus, and try to eliminate the premature reserve deployments possible with one hand on each handle.

[skydiverkeith 1]

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The reason for only one hand on reserve is this...
First of all the reserve is very unlikely to ever be a hard pull, and I'm not wanting to drop the cutaway pud either.

I'm not worried about being able to locate the reserve pud

No matter what the situation, forget about the cutaway handle in terms of setting your emergency procedures. Not losing that handle should literally be NOWHERE in your mind or thought process in terms of being in an actual emergency, or even when planning for one. If you include it in your planning and practice, there is a chance it will rear it's ugly head during an actual emergency, and that's the last thing you should be concerned about.

The cutaway handle is actually the one compoment that you can lose in a cutaway that a rigger can replace for you from stock. The freebag i ssized for the container, the reserve ripcords length is defined by the size of the harness, but any stock cutaway handle can be trimmed to fit your rig. Forget about it.

Is your post correct when you say you have a reserve 'pud'? That being a soft reserve handle? If so, you really need to rethink your loigc that the 'reserve is unlikley to be a hard pull'. Without the mechanical advantage of a D-ring or loop you can pu tyour hand through, you're counting on the strength of your hand to connect your hand to the reserve pin. In the event of an inury to your hand/arm (this is an emergency, anything is possible), the pull could become very hard, not due to closing loop tension, but due to your ability to grip the handle.

Beyond that, soft handles are more likely to fold under the harness or part of your jumpsuit.

I'm going to hazzard a guess that you modified your EP's on your own, after your student training. For the above reasons, I would suggest you reconsider your approach, and stick to the basics.

Right on all counts, and thanks for the advice. Given my setup (reserve pud, rsl, aad) what would you suggest for eps?

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[davelepka 4]

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Given my setup (reserve pud, rsl, aad) what would you suggest for eps?

I'm not sure that any variation of possible setups would merit an alteration to the basic EPs, which is pull cutaway, pull reserve. RSL, AAD, or Skyhook should have no effect on your EPs.

The exact sequence you use to accomplish those two steps is the very subject of this thread, and I'm a fan of two hands on each handle. Others seem to think that one hand per handle is the way to go. I think a universal position would be that holding on to your handles should not appear in your EPs, because that's nowhere near a priority at that time.

It reminds me of a 'trick' I see students pull from time to time. They are taught to read their altimeter, wave off and pull at 5.5k. Every now and again, you'll see a guy read the alti at 5.5, and go right for the hackey, going as far as getting a hand on it, only to return to the stable freefall position and wave off before reaching back again for the pull. You and I both know that the pull is the important part, and that the wave off is fairly low on the list, but the training kicks in and they make sure the wave off happens, usually at the expense of 500 or 1000ft of alittude.

The other issue is your soft reserve handle, which is the subject of many, many other threads, My feelings are that a handle you can hook over your hand or a thumb is a huge advantage over a soft handle. With a 3-ring release and hard riser inserts, the cutaway forces should remain fairly low and the pillow handle is adequate. The reserve pull force is subject to a handful of variables, such as the humidty at the time of the pack job vs. humidity at the time of the reserve pull, and plain old differences between riggers and pack jobs.

I look at it this way, if I had to pick either handle to be harder to pull, I'll take the cutaway. Even if you can't cut away from a mal, as long as you can get a reserve out, you can probably survive. Of course, if you have a total, you really want to the get the reserve out. So for that reason, I'll take a soft cutaway handle, but not the reserve.

If anyone wants to discuss the soft vs hard reserve handle thing, start a new thread just to keep this one on track. Feel free to use this post to start it if you want.

[livendive 8]

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The majority of my jumps are on tandem rigs, on which a two-hands-per-handle procedure is impossible.

Not impossible, just difficult. I had to use two hands on a tandem break away last year (broken riser) and if that hadn't of worked I was going to have to risk putting a reserve past a trailing main.

The funny thing is I rewrote that sentence like 3 times trying to work an "incredibly difficult" or "nearly impossible" in, and it just didn't sound right. Finally I decided the odds were slim anyone would call me on it and went without the qualifier.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

Yeah, but we all know, I just have to go and be "special".

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[brettski74 0]

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What about people who cannot necessarily see their handles? Some women can't.

We actually had an incident where this was a factor around a month or so ago. We had a female jumper with a spinning malfunction, not highly loaded - maybe 1.1-1.2 wing loading. She could not see her handles. Due to the position and load on the harness, they were both obscured by her breasts. Still, she went with what she had been taught. She got two hands on her cutaway handle, and chopped the main. She then reached for her reserve handle and couldn't find it. She couldn't see it. She finally found the reserve handle and pulled it, but not before her AAD fired the reserve and saved her life. This was this particular jumper's second cutaway. She had no problem finding handles on her first cutaway.

In the above incident, the feeling of most who witnessed or discussed the incident is that one hand per handle probably would have been a much safer method in these circumstances. While she may have had to spend just as much time finding the reserve handle, she would have been doing so while descending under a lightly loaded canopy, which while spinning, was descending a lot slower than she did in freefall. This is somewhat speculative - who knows how things really would have gone in such a situation, but at the very least, it shows that this is not as black and white as the OP suggests. Our chief instructor has a similar level of experience as Sonic - around 7000 jumps and 20 years in the sport. My home DZ teaches the two hand method to students and novices, but after this particular incident started questioning our methods. He's still confident that two-hands is the best method to teach to students for similar reasons that Sonic mentioned - specifically, more pull strength in the case of a hard cutaway and reduced chance of out-of-sequence EPs. Based on incidents such as the one described above, he is now thinking that when we get to doing emergency procedure reviews for B licence and above, we should also highlight the possibility of the one hand per handle method.

I'll also add that I was originally taught the two handed method, however, I transitioned to the one-handed method after my B licence. I completed my B licence requirements and exam while away and visiting at another DZ. During the emergency procedures review for my B licence, we noticed that I was doing two handed method but that the people from that DZ were using one handed. This prompted a discussion of the various pros and cons of each method. Nobody told me to change - in fact the end result of the discussion was that there are various pros and cons and we should use whatever works best for ourselves. Shortly thereafter, I changed my procedures based on my personal evaluation of those pros and cons. I'd also add that the chief instructor and DZO at that dropzone has more than twice Sonic's jump numbers, more years in the sport, and has medals and records in CRW at the world level. He's had more than his fair share of chops and based on what his students are being taught, I'm guessing that he believes that one-handed is the better method. Again, it seems not so black and white.

"Better" is a very subjective term. If you want to really prove that one method is "better" than the other, you'll need to define what "better" actually means and then come up with some hard data to back your position up, not just anecdotes and opinions.

[faulknerwn 36]

After an incident of my own about 10 years ago (after a CRW wrap up high luckily) I always teach how to find the handles if you can't..

In my case I was in a wrap and I needed to chop even though I didn't have a hand on my reserve handle yet, it was imperative that I leave now! I was at 5-6k though so it was high. My harness had gotten twisted from the wrap and my reserve handle wasn't there! There I was in freefall, not finding my reserve handle, thinking nothing more about what an idiot I was gonna look like in Parachutist for chopping at 5k and never pulling reserve! (Swear to god that's what I was thinking.)

But something that had never been taught to me but I figured out was to grab my 3-rings, and slide my hand down the harness until I found the handle. And it worked. I always make sure I teach that as well - I had never thought about what I would do if I couldn't find a handle. Improvising worked for me but its far better to have a plan in advance..

Its very much worthwhile teaching rookies a good method of locating their handles if they can't see them...

[BlindBrick 0]

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Well, it's a simple fact that if you use the one handed method it is possible to have an out of sequence procedure,

Even with a two handed method it's possible to have an out of sequence opening. All it takes is a stress-induced brain fart for someone to first reach left instead of right. Lord knows I've seen it multiple times in fjc, and I've only been teaching a little over a year.

Having said that, I do fer teach my students 2 handed, but with 9 chops under my belt, if someone tried to retrain me from the the single handed method, I'd politely tell them to stuff it. Trying to force experienced jumpers to convert sounds like a good way to kill more up-jumpers than you will ever save.

For those who don't like the thought of losing sight of the ripcord. We teach our students to bring their left arm across their chest so that their elbow is resting on their D ring. Then, as they pull they slide their eyes from their left wrist to their left elbow so that they are watching the D ring. That way if it shifts, they have both tactile and visual confirmation of where their D ring is.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[LSD3rd 12]

Try this-- With eyes closed , find the chest strap, slides hands outward ,to main left web, slide hands down until you touch your handles.

Daniel Johnson

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

Hey brettski74,

You pretty much sum up this thread with your last post. Things aren't so black and white. I still believe the 2 handed method is the way to go. But each jumper should know what they are going to do and practice that method properly and know the pros and cons as you say.

And that chick with the BIG RACK, tell her to get an RSL.

Thanks for the post.

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[billvon 2,391]

Incident from a week ago (another illustration of the problems of one-hand-per-handle):

Experienced (~1000 jumps) jumper had a stuck brake toggle tangled in the lines. She started to cut away, using the one hand per handle method. She tried pulling the cutaway handle. It didn't move. She let go with her left hand to help and finally got it clear. Then she grabbed her reserve handle and pulled. It didn't move either. She helped with her other hand and it still didn't move.

Her cypres finally fired at 750 feet. When she looked down she had been pulling on her reserve ripcord housing, which in her rig is exposed and accessible.

[Abedy 0]

Hi Sonic,
I believe that jumpers not only should but will stick to the method they were taught.
I was taught the two-hand method and after about 1300 skydives I was due: Hard opening, I looked up and saw: Line Over and knew it was going to get nasty and it did; instantly spinning really fast. I immediately decided to cut away and without thinking, grabbed the cutaway handle with both hands (almost being horizontally) and pulled it out to full length (and threw it away as I have been told years before). I then was thrown through the orbit and found myself on my back, arched and grabbed for the reserve handle and... nothing. Fartknocker, LOOK, I told myself and, voilà there it was and I pulled it out with both hands. Next thing I hang under a green reserve canopy. Took nine years to see it inflated
I think when being thrown through the skies (due to the radial force when chopping away a nasty spinner) you will most likely not be able to leave your left hand on your reserve handle, so I think the two-hand method works well - as long as you look
(I'm practising the "look to the reserve handle" with much more emphasis now. )

But if someone was taught the one-hand method I would not attempt to make them change their EPs - see above: One is most likely to stick to the EP you were taught first and any other method training should only mess with what your muscle memory is going to do...
Just my 2 Eurocents.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[pchapman 261]

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She helped with her other hand and it still didn't move.
Her cypres finally fired at 750 feet. When she looked down she had been pulling on her reserve ripcord housing,

An interesting case.

One could argue that it wasn't a problem with one hand per handle at all.

On the reserve pull, she tried one hand, she tried two hands, a third or fourth hand would have been equally useless if she had continued to pull on the housing.


On the cutaway, one can argue it either way. In that one instance, she didn't have the strength or whatever to cut away one handed. But one can argue that USUALLY one should be able to cut away one handed, and taking the extra time to go to two hands shouldn't be an issue. Also, in the usual case of being able to cutaway with one hand, then she'd might have had her left hand properly on the reserve handle instead of grabbing it too quickly after chopping.


(I'm not arguing for or against any particular method, just arguing about how that particular incident doesn't seem to me a great victory for either method.)

[faulknerwn 36]

I also suspect that unless she was spinning violently (which the description didn't sound like she was) she probably didn't remember to peel the velcro before pulling. That makes it SO much easier to pull and I suspect that if she didn't have enough presence of mind to look at her reserve handle when she couldn't pull it, she might not have had enough presence of mind to peel the cutaway.

A long thorough review of procedures (either method) would be a good plan for her..

[dks13827 2]

Soft reserve handles !!! :(

Not for me.

[popsjumper 2]

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Incident from a week ago (another illustration of the problems of one-hand-per-handle):

Wrong again.
It's mishandled EPs having nothing to do with either method.

("When she looked down"....could be a clue, eh?)

It CAN lead to a discussion of using GOOD EPs. Nice try though.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,391]

>("When she looked down"....could be a clue, eh?)

Yes, it is. The one-hand-per-handle system is look-look-grab-grab-pull-pull. The two-hand-per-handle system is look red-grab red-look silver-pull red-grab silver-pull silver. The fact that she did not look down at first indicates that she did not have enough training in the two-hand-per-handle system, which emphasizes looking after you grab the cutaway handle.

[billvon 2,391]

>On the reserve pull, she tried one hand, she tried two hands, a third or
>fourth hand would have been equally useless if she had continued to pull
>on the housing.

Agreed. The thing missing is looking at the reserve handle before pulling it, which is part of the two-hands-per-handle system.

One way to mitigate this is to teach a hybrid of both, which would be:

look red
grab red
look silver
grab silver
pull red
look silver
grab silver with right hand (to guarantee correct training even during a release of the reserve handle to 'help' the other hand)
pull silver

Might be a reasonable option for experienced jumpers, although you'd want to keep it simpler for students.