Can "experience" be a bad thing?

[rehmwa 2]

A lot of newbies tune out advice when the main argument is "you need more experience". I'd argue that we actually mean they need more "correct" experience.

But I'm willing to throw a few bones that way hoping that most of us old schoolers try to walk the talk as best we can.

How about we put out a few examples of where old school is now realized to be incorrect or not the best and acknowledge that some colleagues aren't learning despite thousands of jumps.

priming the pump:

1 - slow fall (beach ball is still recommended by old timers). IMHO with booties, long and flat is where it's at

2 - 45 degree rule for separation - need I say more? and this is a dangerous one. It's an old time rule that needs to be crushed.

3 - vertical separation matters for exit order (absolutely not a primary concern over winddrift)

4 - I see a lot of oldtimers that just don't ever finish their flares on HP canopies. But they do seem to still be able to run pretty good.

any more?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jdfreefly 1]

A canopy will change it's recovery arc based on the wind.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[wmw999 2,116]

- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit
Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Rstanley0312 0]

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- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit
Wendy P.

For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[rehmwa 2]

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- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit
Wendy P.

For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

speed is your friend for many of the newer canopies

partial brakes was a correct response on older 7 cells to help open the nose for more inflation - newer canopies appreciate more speed over inlet angle - someone help me with this one - I don't think I'm explaining as clearly as it's needed

Wendy - the brakes thing I still see taught (incorrectly for most canopies) today. The suit thing not so much. nice ones

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Rstanley0312 0]

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- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

- There is no such thing as too big a jumpsuit
Wendy P.

For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

speed is your friend for many of the newer canopies

partial brakes was a correct response on older 7 cells to help open the nose for more inflation - newer canopies appreciate more speed over inlet angle - someone help me with this one - I don't think I'm explaining as clearly as it's needed

Wendy - the brakes thing I still see taught (incorrectly for most canopies) today. The suit thing not so much. nice ones

So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Anvilbrother 0]

When he discussed it on Skydive radio I heard it as taking up brakes in flight was to "pretension" the control lines in anticipation of a stall/collapse there would be that much less lag time when giving imput to reinflate the canopy.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rehmwa 2]

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So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.

For newer canopy models, I'm not certain (full flight vs inducing extra speed with fronts while in the turb air) which is safer - I'd take it to the canopy forum or look up some of Brian's articles to clarify that distinction. I'm a 4way guy, not a canopy guy.

But if you have an older canopy like a Maverick or Pegasus, then quarter brakes is appropriate and fronts is a mistake...... So it depends on the canopy.

For my Stiletto, I like to do a long smooth front turn and then let it fly through the turbulence without the extra if I know it's down there ahead of time - but that's a special case. Otherwise, if I'm caught in turb, I just let it fly and minimize any inputs to no more than needed just to keep it on track.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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taking up brakes

I don't know what that means - does it mean pull down or let up?

(this is what I'm inferring), just take the slack out of the brakes (a good brake setting lets the canopy fly with no tail deflection, plus a little more slack than that even - a couple inches), but no more (full flight still, just be ready) - if so, that makes the most sense to me


thanks

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yes pulling down on the control lines to take up the slack in the lines

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[wmw999 2,116]

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The suit thing not so much

That one was said in 1979

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Rstanley0312 0]

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So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.

For newer canopy models, I'm not certain (full flight vs inducing extra speed with fronts while in the turb air) which is safer - I'd take it to the canopy forum or look up some of Brian's articles to clarify that distinction. I'm a 4way guy, not a canopy guy.

But if you have an older canopy like a Maverick or Pegasus, then quarter brakes is appropriate and fronts is a mistake...... So it depends on the canopy.

For my Stiletto, I like to do a long smooth front turn and then let it fly through the turbulence without the extra if I know it's down there ahead of time - but that's a special case. Otherwise, if I'm caught in turb, I just let it fly and minimize any inputs to no more than needed just to keep it on track.

I fly a Crossfire 2

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[billvon 2,384]

>I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

I would recommend that you do not distort the canopy when you're worried about it collapsing. Most canopies are most stable at full flight or with some (slight) brake input. Most canopies reinflate best with "deployment" brake settings, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.

[DocPop 1]

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>I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

I would recommend that you do not distort the canopy when you're worried about it collapsing. Most canopies are most stable at full flight or with some (slight) brake input. Most canopies reinflate best with "deployment" brake settings, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.

Agreed. Flight-1 canopy courses teach participants to fly in full flight through turbulence.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Rstanley0312 0]

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>I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?

I would recommend that you do not distort the canopy when you're worried about it collapsing. Most canopies are most stable at full flight or with some (slight) brake input. Most canopies reinflate best with "deployment" brake settings, usually about 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.

Agreed. Flight-1 canopy courses teach participants to fly in full flight through turbulence.

With altitude thats what I do I am talking about landing. If it is turbulant lower I do a normal pattern and come in double fronts for speed. Not a good idea?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[tetra316 0]

Not a good idea if that is not your normal landing sequence. You don't want to be doing double fronts for the first time in turbulance. That's asking for trouble.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Not a good idea if that is not your normal landing sequence. You don't want to be doing double fronts for the first time in turbulance. That's asking for trouble.

I come in double fronts or w/a 90 front riser. Good input though.... that could be really bad if it was not practiced up high first and been done when conditions are good.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[tetra316 0]

As for a good idea in turbulence, I really don't know. Thinking full flight would be better though...

[dgskydive 0]

Double fronts not such a good idea. You want the nose open to the air. When you pull down on the fronts you are pulling the leading edge down and if the air hits it from the top and folds it under, then you are in for some trouble. Full flight would be the best thing.

Dom

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Double fronts not such a good idea. You want the nose open to the air. When you pull down on the fronts you are pulling the leading edge down and if the air hits it from the top and folds it under, then you are in for some trouble. Full flight would be the best thing.

Cool.... thanks for all of the input everyone. I was under the assumption speed would help out but thinking about everything that has been said it makes more sense to just let it fly.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[champu 1]

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How about we put out a few examples of where old school is now realized to be incorrect or not the best and acknowledge that some colleagues aren't learning despite thousands of jumps.

There's a lot of old school exit advice for 4-way FS that's counter-productive, like telling the point to keep their feet on their butt or telling the tail to stick their legs all the way out. I think it stemed from the desire to have the formation pointed at the ground regardless of where the relative wind was coming from.

Likewise the old school rolling of a head-down flower out the door sideways doesn't present anybody to the relatively wind correctly.

[skybytch 259]

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- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.

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Works great on my canopy at my wingloading. YMMV.

[RIGGER160 0]

Yeah. To many people are operating under the false assupmtion that experience is the same as competence

[ufk22 32]

Prime example just a couple of threads up
"poll;How do teach emergency procedures?"
This guy take arrogance (and ignorance)to a whole new level.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Ron 7]

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If it is turbulant lower I do a normal pattern and come in double fronts for speed. Not a good idea?

No. You are changing the trim of the canopy and that can lead to a collapse. In turbulence the best thing to do is full flight and be ready to use the brakes to correct any issues.

On older big canopy's a little brakes can help keep the canopy inflated, but it is not needed on most modern canopy's.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334