"Time-In-Sport" as criterion for instructional ratings?

[DSE 3]

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"...time in sport alone, cannot be a measurement of anything significant."
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Well, I would say time in sport alone is indeed a measure of longevity, and in a sport where many will fly fast and burn out or just sort of fade away, longevity is, on its own, significant.

To me, anyways.

OK....A guy does a static line jump in West Jordan, Utah nearly 30 years ago. Hated it. 25 years roll past and he wants to try it again. In 5 years, he racks up 1600 jumps.
He can truthfully say he's done 1600 jumps in 30 years.
Would you suggest he has greater knowledge and longevity than Skydiver B, who got just as many jumps in 2 years?

[tjm 0]

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As an "old skydiver ......... It's all about the EXPERIENCE"

typical "I consider I have a lot of experience, so therefore I value experience...and so should everyone else"


I know quite a few jumpers with decades behind them that I wouldn't point to a student for any reason. We spend more time cleaning up bad outdated advice from these guys than we do teaching new fliers.

And I know a handful of newbies that just have the knack for teaching and coaching.

1 - very defined skills requirements (Either demonstrated on site or previously observed by the course director or validated by some trustworthy source)
2 - demonstration of knowledge of the subject and demonstrating ability to teach the subject
3 - advocacy from the DZO or S&TA that the individual would be a good instructor

skills....not time....not numbers are what matters
knowledge.....not time....not numbers are what matters
a referral doesn't hurt either
showing the ability to teach sure helps too

that said - someone with a lot of USEFUL and APPLICABLE skydiving experience would certainly have the edge over someone new with a similar commit level.......That's called an 'advantage', not a 'prerequisite'

IMHO


I'd rather leave a bit of discretion to the directors in deciding who's in and who's not, and then have the directors monitored periodically to make sure they have the judgment necessary for that responsibility

I mostly agree, but old timers are not neccesarly more skilled and worthy of instruction, but still have something to offer. Skydiving is not just some sport for jumping, showing skills, staying within safety boundaries and getting paid. Its a lifestyle. A lot of old timers know the "spirit",if you will, and why we developed this into a lifestyle way back when. Its bitter, sweet the way it has improved from the "if it was safe, then everybody would be doing it" days to the it can be done as safe as possible days. Shit, I love jumping out of a plane knowing I am dead unless I do something about it. I think more of the traditional skydiving is dead in modern skydiving and more engrained in BASE jumping.

Don't ge me wrong, I love advances in safety for the sport, but the experienced ones can let it be know why we take the risk and hopefully pass on a little bit of the spirit of the past.

Again, its not all about giving the best freefall instruction or safety techniques, but some of it is about the experienced passing on the original mindset, hopefully. I was lucky enough to learn a good bit from some old timers.

-tj

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[skypuppy 1]

OK....A guy does a static line jump in West Jordan, Utah nearly 30 years ago. Hated it. 25 years roll past and he wants to try it again. In 5 years, he racks up 1600 jumps.
He can truthfully say he's done 1600 jumps in 30 years.
Would you suggest he has greater knowledge and longevity than Skydiver B, who got just as many jumps in 2 years?
_________________________________________________

I would be more likely to give him credit for 1600 jumps in 6 years, and I would say, yes he does have greater knowledge and longevity than someone who got the same number of jumps in 2 years.

However I would never agree he had been involved in the sport for 30 years if he hasn't done at least some jumps in each of those years (if he worked as a manifestor, packer, or judge, or something like that, I might have to modify my opinion, but it still isn't 'jump' experience).

If you make 105 jumps in one year, leave for 5 years and then come back to make another 105 jumps the next year, you have accumulated 210 jumps and 2 years experience over 7 years. Your average rate was 105 jumps/year.

If you make 105 jumps one year, then 10 jumps/year for 5 years, then 55 jumps the next year, then yes, you made 210 jumps and 7 years experience over 7 years. 10 jumps a year may not be a lot of experience, but it is something. Of course your average is now 30 jumps/year, so you may not meet currency requirements.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[jenkincb00 0]

The guys that don't have the experience will always say that time in sport shouldn't be a factor....I agree it shouldn't be the only factor, but it is an important factor.

Its like children you tell them...wait, you will understand when you are older or even better when you have kids of your own.

Well wait its true, when you have a bit more time in the sport you will start realizing just how crucial all that time in the sport is to being a qualified instructor.

What doctor do you want the young guy fresh out of school with all that fancy book learning or the doctor with 20 yrs real experience?

[pilotdave 0]

You can always find oddball situations, but on average it doesn't work that way. Time in sport is meaningful. It's not everything. It's not a substitute for experience. But it counts for something.

Dave

[rehmwa 2]

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Again, its not all about giving the best freefall instruction or safety techniques, but some of it is about the experienced passing on the original mindset, hopefully. I was lucky enough to learn a good bit from some old timers.

I've only been doing this for a couple decades and a half - but I have to say that this thread is about giving the best freefall instruction or safety techniques as predicted by performance and training qualifications.

As far as sharing the culture? that happens by jumping and being around jumpers - not in the class.

I understand what you are saying and agree, buts it a topical non sequitor

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 558]

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... What doctor do you want the young guy fresh out of school with all that fancy book learning or the doctor with 20 years real experience?

"

.......................................................................

A retired heart surgeon - who recently took up skydiving - told me that the best surgeons are 45 years old. They are old enough to have learned plenty on-the-job, but their eyesight has not faded yet.

A dentist/private pilot confirmed that opinion.

Does that mean that a 52 year-old Tandem Examiner - like me - is past his prime?

[tjm 0]

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Again, its not all about giving the best freefall instruction or safety techniques, but some of it is about the experienced passing on the original mindset, hopefully. I was lucky enough to learn a good bit from some old timers.

I've only been doing this for a couple decades and a half - but I have to say that this thread is about giving the best freefall instruction or safety techniques as predicted by performance and training qualifications.

As far as sharing the culture? that happens by jumping and being around jumpers - not in the class.

I understand what you are saying and agree, buts it a topical non sequitor

Agreed, I was a little drunk and tired last night when I posted. I was a little out of context for this thread.

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[jenkincb00 0]

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Does that mean that a 52 year-old Tandem Examiner - like me - is past his prime?

yes...way past your prime...probably can't even remember your "prime" but there is probably some black & white photos of you in your prime some where around here

[airtwardo 6]

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You can always find oddball situations, but on average it doesn't work that way. Time in sport is meaningful. It's not everything. It's not a substitute for experience. But it counts for something.

Dave

It does.

It's called 'seasoning' and yes it adds a positive flavor to the product...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kallend 1,620]

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You can always find oddball situations, but on average it doesn't work that way. Time in sport is meaningful. It's not everything. It's not a substitute for experience. But it counts for something.

Dave

It does.

It's called 'seasoning' and yes it adds a positive flavor to the product...

Don't like that analogy.

Historically, seasonings were used to cover the flavor of meat that had gone bad in hot climates.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,116]

You're replying to Twardo. Maybe it's not such a bad analogy

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[NYKid 0]

My question is ... How many jumps does one have to do in a year to count that said year as time in sport. Do you have to make a jump every year to count that year? If you say yes to the second question. I would like to know why?

If I am a engineer for 30 but I don't work in the field for two of those years. Should I tell people I have been doing it for 28 years.No I would say I Have 30 years.

[wmw999 2,116]

There aren't any hard and fast rules because the answer is often "it depends."

I was an active jumper for about 10 years, then an irregular jumper for about 3, then I made no jumps for 13, but kept getting and reading Parachutist, and I was a regular participant on rec.skydiving. Started up again.

So -- was I a jumper during those 13 years? Some of them? Do I get partial credit because I knew what they were talking about and kept up with what was going on in the sport?

Dunno. But having a guideline, with a means for exceptions to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, seems like the best way to protect the interests of the student.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ufk22 32]

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"Time in sport"

I have watched several lenghty threads here which discuss the value of "time in sport" as a criterion for various instructional ratings. I still don't understand.

Let's compare two jumpers:

FAST FREDDIE makes ten jumps every weekend for a year. At the end of the year he has >500 jumps.

SLOW SAM makes ten jumps on every third weekend.  At the end if three years he has >500 jumps.

Folks who favor "time in sport" would say that SLOW SAM is better prepared that FAST FREDDIE.

My question is:

What is happening on those extra 14 days between SLOW SAM's jumping weekends that makes him better prepared for an instructional rating than FAST FREDDIE?

An extra 2 years to realize he's not invulnerable and actually does make mistakes. Actually, it takes longer than the extra 2 years.
Most people I know in the sport spend at least 5 years before they figure out what they don't know. Took me that long for sure, maybe longer. It's called judgement.
Course, there are some that. after 20 years, have still never been wrong.
But that's another thread....

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[tjm 0]

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You can always find oddball situations, but on average it doesn't work that way. Time in sport is meaningful. It's not everything. It's not a substitute for experience. But it counts for something.

Dave

It does.














It's called 'seasoning' and yes it adds a positive flavor to the product...

Don't like that analogy.

Historically, seasonings were used to cover the flavor of meat that had gone bad in hot climates.

Don't like that analogy.

Historically, seasoings were used to keep meat from going bad in hot climates, and even kept in smoke houses at more elevated temperatures.

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[airtwardo 6]

live a little....try some FRESH meat!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[darthur2000 0]

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How many jumps does one have to do in a year to count that said year as time in sport.

The answer is none.

So if you did a tandem in March 1995 you are considered by the USPA to now have 15-years in the sport (and yes they do count towards things like getting your Tandem Instructor rating).

[Fast 0]

I think time in sport can count for something, but in many cases it doesn't. It's one of those things like jump numbers, that doesn't mean anything as a stand alone number.

If I have 2000 jumps as a big way belly flyer, I don't really have a lot of ground to teach someone freeflying. If all I ever do is tandems I probably don't stand to give my opinion on how to be doing 16-way. The same can be said for time in sport. My personal story is that since I started jumping I have been active on these forums and at my dropzone on a daily/weekly basis. I can probably count the number of weekends I have missed at the dz since 2003 on two hands. I get to the dz on friday most weeks and am one of the last ones to leave on sunday. Then I jump a day or two during the week as well. MY time in sport is a lot more valuable than someone who shows up for 3-4 hours one day a week. At least if you are just looking at it on the basis of "years in sport."

I have seen my share of dead skydivers, helped to investigate a fatality, run a dropzone, instruct, seen close calls, been part of close calls, went through the "you can't scare me" phase, am in the "be reasonable about shit so I don't get killed" phase, etc etc etc. Many people with the same time in sport might not have done all that. So, it's meaningful, but it might not be. Makes for an interesting topic.

That's what makes me like the system that is often employed by jumpers at my home dz. It's more like mentoring. I learned what I needed to know about doing AFF from a local examiner who knew me and could make sure I knew what I needed to pass the course and be a good instructor. When people with fresh ratings or people we don't know show up, it's like a first date, you have to figure out if you like this person or not, get to know them. Except, it's a lot more dangerous in skydiving, so we have to be cautious.

Not that everyone is trustworthy, cause I know there are a lot of people out there who just want to make a buck, but some sort of mentoring/recommendation system would be substantially more productive. Sounds pretty backwater and exclusive, but if people were more honorable in the world it would work pretty well. Vouch for those who you trust to have the skill and they proceed. Too bad greed will prevent a system like that from ever being successful.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Southern_Man 0]

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to pass the course and be a good instructor. When people with fresh ratings or people we don't know show up, it's like a first date, you have to figure out if you like this person or not, get to know them. Except, it's a lot more dangerous in skydiving, so we have to be cautious.

.

You haven't been on some of the first dates I have

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Experience cannot always be measured in simple numbers. So, how about developing a rubric which takes into account many things like;
- time in sport
- total number of jumps
-average number of jumps per year
-most jumps in one year
- least jumps in one year
-training courses attended
-tunnel time
-number of jumps in various disciplines
-successful cutaway/reserve rides
-number of broken bones
-personal recommendations
-etc.

Let's face it; we all develop skills/ knowledge in different ways. Not to mention, as Rehmwa alluded to above, there's always the "HUMAN" variable.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[kallend 1,620]

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You can always find oddball situations, but on average it doesn't work that way. Time in sport is meaningful. It's not everything. It's not a substitute for experience. But it counts for something.

Dave

It does.














It's called 'seasoning' and yes it adds a positive flavor to the product...

Don't like that analogy.

Historically, seasonings were used to cover the flavor of meat that had gone bad in hot climates.

Don't like that analogy.

Historically, seasoings were used to keep meat from going bad in hot climates, and even kept in smoke houses at more elevated temperatures.

You're thinking of salt, and possibly curry. But most seasonings don't have significant preservative qualities.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 0]

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For a tandem rating iit should be time in sport & 1000 jumps IMHO

If we're trying to put more and more 1-Cessna DZs out of business, that's a good way to do it.

[rehmwa 2]

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learned what I needed to know about doing AFF from a local examiner who knew me and could make sure I knew what I needed to pass the course and be a good instructor...........some sort of mentoring/recommendation system would be substantially more productive. Sounds pretty backwater and exclusive, but if people were more honorable in the world it would work pretty well. Vouch for those who you trust to have the skill and they proceed.

this is a lot like what it felt like years ago for instructors and going on demos, etc

I miss it, it's the right way to do this sport

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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"...time in sport alone, cannot be a measurement of anything significant."
__________________________________________________

Well, I would say time in sport alone is indeed a measure of longevity, and in a sport where many will fly fast and burn out or just sort of fade away, longevity is, on its own, significant.

To me, anyways.

And at my age, it's a damn sight whole lotta significant!

I want to live to be an old skydiver...


Oh, wait...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239