Handling Students w/o a Proficiency Card

[dninness 4]

Recently, I've worked with two students who came to our DZ from other DZ without USPA proficiency cards, and over the last two years as an instructional rating holder (coach, and now AFF) I've encountered several students in the same boat.

In one instance, recently, a young lady has started jumping at a DZ out west, doing 2 tandems and then several one-instructor jumps (she kept saying "AFP"), and then went to another highly respected midwest DZ to make 2 more "AFP" jumps, then came to our DZ. No SIM, no proficiency card. Just an introductory logbook with very abbreviated entries. In another instance, same thing: student did several "AFP" jumps at another DZ near where he lived and showed up to us without a proficiency card. He said they kept his card in his student file for "safekeeping."

I guess I'm a little shocked that there are still a lot of DZs not following the ISP (certainly, its optional), and then not taking care of their students by insuring that they can jump elsewhere and continue to be documented in their progression.

So as an instructor, how do you handle student with 8-10 jumps and no proficiency card? Do you start one and sign off everything prior to the jumps you do with "See logbook" or similar, or do you only sign off the stuff you've done with them, period? Do you have them re-demonstrate things? Retake the category quizzes?

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[Gary73 8]

Unfortunately there are a number of DZOs out there who are greedy scumbags who do everything in their power to keep students from jumping at other dropzones. Some hold on to A cards; some even hold on to the student's logbooks. Bastards.

I guess you could try phoning the dropzone to see if they'll fax a copy to you, but they'll probably refuse, 'cause after all, they're greedy scumbag bastards.

Given that, I'd say start a new card and sign off any new accomplishments. If the student won't be going back to the old DZ(s), a lot of the A-card requirements are things that we take the student's word on or which can be done in a few minutes or a few jumps.

Also, encourage all students to note in their logbooks whenever they accomplish things on the A card, etc.

As for the ISP, personally I think it's overblown and unnecessarily expensive for the student, though it's still better than AFP. Seven-level AFF and the two-page A card work just fine.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[SkyjunkySean 0]

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Unfortunately there are a number of DZOs out there who are greedy scumbags who do everything in their power to keep students from jumping at other dropzones. Some hold on to A cards; some even hold on to the student's logbooks. Bastards.

Name them, if they are such "greedy bastards" I jump "out west" At the dropzones I jumped, I have never encountered a DZO with the attitude you describe. I even finished my A card at Lodi, showing up with my silly 22 jumps, and was still welcomed openly, at a DZ notorious for NOT being student friendly.

Ever consider that this "student" either misplaced there proficiency card, or just hadn,t performed said tasks ?

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[peek 20]

I suggest not making any assumptions, and try to find out if it is 1. a dropzone not doing as well as they could be educating or documenting their students, 2. the student not knowing their responsibility to retain their documentation, or 3. the student having lost or forgotten something (and perhaps covering it up).

Unfortunately it is frustrating and sometimes a bunch of extra work you shouldn't have to do. But you are one of the really good instructors if you take the time to do it.

[ufk22 32]

AFP is common at bigger centers, pioneered, I think, by Roger Nelson at SDC. 2 tandem jumps minimum to show they will deploy on time, then single side AFF.
In terms of proficiency cards, my DZ keeps them in a file at the DZ rather than sending them with the student.
NO, we're not a "GREEDY B" drop zone, rather a small club that does only S/L progression, but we've had enough lost cards, then ry to reconstruct, experiences over the years.
I wouldn't sign off on something I couldn;t personally verify, but as has been said, a phone call to the past DZ and a request for a fax would probably take care of it.
Doing AFP doesn't mean not using the ISP, just means a slightly different progression to Cat C.
The lack of a card might just be the students fault (we do tell them that prior to licence, they'll need a copy of the card with them and their log book to jump at most other DZ's) As to the lack of a SIM, we keep several around the DZ, and even make copies of each catagory for students to take home and study (most just log on to USPA's website to download what they need).

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[dninness 4]

Just to be clear: I'm certainly not pointing fingers (per se) at other DZ and calling anybody a "greedy bastard." I'm merely wanting to be sure that my student's progress is going to be accurately documented so that when the time comes, USPA can issue a license.

Not being that familiar with AFP, its hard to gauge where a student should "slot in" to AFF, so that brings a whole new raft of issues with it that I won't specifically address here. I've also had students come up from southern DZs that do "7 Level AFF" and the student is standing there with his logbook and a "just pumped the neighbor's cat" look on his face, and we're scratching our collective heads to figure out how to document the progression and allow the student to continue jumping at our DZ with coaching and such.

Yeah, I think the 2 page proficiency card is probably the first stop, vice the 4 page "ISP" card, at least in these circumstances. A handy guide might be an "AFP to AFF equivalence" cheat sheet for AFF DZs.

Thanks for the replies.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[Andy9o8 0]

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In terms of proficiency cards, my DZ keeps them in a file at the DZ rather than sending them with the student.
NO, we're not a "GREEDY B" drop zone, rather a small club that does only S/L progression, but we've had enough lost cards, then try to reconstruct, experiences over the years.

Why not just keep a photocopy of the card on file, and give the original back to the student?

[Gary73 8]

I really can't see a good reason for the dropzone to hold on to student logbooks or A cards. Sure, students will forget to bring them occasionally, but so what? Just give them a blank logbook page to document the jump and sign off the A card the next time they come around. If they're not planning to come back to your DZ, make a note in the logbook that they completed the item and wish them good luck. A cards, whether 2- or 4-page, belong to the student, not to the dropzone. Regardless of the stated intent, the result of DZs holding on to them is to prevent students from easily going to other dropzones. If you want to keep students at your dropzone, offer good training at fair prices.

Sean, just because you haven't witnessed a certain behavior, that doesn't mean it has never happened. There are plenty of dropzones "out west", and their policies can change over time.

As for not naming dropzones who do this, I fully understand that. All too often, greedy bastards are good enough at what they do to afford lawyers who can make a person's life miserable just for telling the truth.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[azureriders 0]

A few thoughts, points, and hopefully a conclusion that may help:

I work at a DZ using the old 7 level AFF with the two page card. This DZ does a ton of AFF and has been doing so before the ISP was around. The program in use works very well and the DZO has never seen a reason to change over. We issue the student a two page card as part of their AFF graduation after level 7.

I am an active coach examiner. When teaching a coach course I always teach two systems. First is the ISP. Even though I think there are other good programs, as a means of standardization, all instructional rating holders should know the ISP. Second I try to teach what ever system the DZ that is hosting the course uses.

Point is so far, there is more than one system that works and they all seem to have pros and cons. I picked up something from Bram Clement while getting my AFF-I, and now I pass on to all my coach candidates “Just because it is different, does not mean it is wrong". I don’t think you are taking the "it is wrong" approach, just asking for advice on how to handle it, but some people really do think any thing other than the ISP is just wrong. Not so in my opinion.

How do you handle military cross over students? Maybe you don’t see any of these but we do A LOT of them. The show up with 20 - 35 jumps and *most* all the requirements for an A license, and more often than not, no A card at all. Their training seems to be very thorough but no where near anything resembling the ISP. IMO, the two page card is the only way to go here. The two page is designed for just that, anything other than the ISP.

So for my conclusion, if the student is far enough along that catching a four page up for him would be difficult, why not just use the two page and mold your program around this particular students needs. I personally find more traveling students with out cards than I do with, however some do show up with a four page. Although that is not what we use, we do continue with their card and mold what we need to around them.

I am in no way suggesting one card is better than the other, just that there is a time and place to use the other one. As for the other poster that mentioned recreating lost cards being a problem, I am an Instructor, not a baby sitter. We approach our students that way and I have never had to recreate a lost card. The fact that we give them the card after level 7 however may be a factor in that.

[riggerrob 558]

" ... NO, we're not a "GREEDY B" drop zone, rather a small club that does only S/L progression, but we've had enough lost cards, then ry to reconstruct, experiences over the years.
I wouldn't sign off on something I couldn;t personally verify, but as has been said, a phone call to the past DZ and a request for a fax would probably take care of it.
..."

.....................................................................................................

I am really tired of students arriving at the DZ without their logbooks.
They usually develop better habits after walking back to the parking lot a couple of times.

[ufk22 32]

This is a different topic. I won't let a student jump without their log book. Hanging on to this and bringing it along is mandatory, and a look through their log book tells me alot more than a look at a license card.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[AFFI 0]

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In terms of proficiency cards, my DZ keeps them in a file at the DZ rather than sending them with the student... ...we've had enough lost cards, then try to reconstruct, experiences over the years.

This reasoning is ridiculous.
There is no good reason for the DZ to keep a students proficiency card.

If the instructor’s are doing their job, then getting a proficiency card caught up or, in the case of a lost card, starting a new one will only take a matter of minutes and should not require “reconstruction”.
Every item that was signed off during the student’s progression should be noted in their logbook. It is not rocket science, this is just a case of AFF Instructors crapping out on their duties.

I have worked with students who did not have their card with them and told me that it was “on file” at another DZ, then their logbooks were not filled out properly – talk about a major league frustrating pain in the ass.
AFF Instructors out there, do your jobs. It only takes a few seconds to properly fill out a logbook and keep the proficiency cards current.
Being an AFF Instructor is more than just freefall.

Skydiving students are not children, give them their freaking cards and logbooks.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[stratostar 5]

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There is no good reason for the DZ to keep a students proficiency card.

Yea they have these new fancy things these days that if you place a paper or photo or other item you need to keep on file.... well you just push a small button and what'd ya know like magic you can have a copy for your files.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo