skydude2000 3 #1 July 24, 2009 Hi everyone, I just had a quick question about AFF instructors. I actually did the old school S/L program, which is probably why I don't know. I know on the first stages, there are two instructors, a main side, and a reserve side. My question is, is the main side instructor responsible for the cut-away if the student doesn't respond? I know ultimately the student is responsible for themselves. But how does an AFF instructor respond for a student in an emergency? It seems to me, that through anything but a total, it would be exceedingly difficult for the reserve side instructor to stay with the student? Especially considering the generally chaotic opening sequence, even moreso with a malfunction. How do the instructors stay relative to the student during these critical phases?PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kawisixer01 0 #2 July 24, 2009 Either instructor can pull the main as most student rigs have the pilot flap pullable from both sides. Once your main is pulled, by you or an instructor if you fail to, you are on your own. There would be no way for an instructor to stick with you through opening sequence, nor would it be even close to safe for them to try to. Most instructors aren't going to pull until their normal altitude (below the 4500-5000 an aff student pulls at) They then will land and assist the student via radio with approach and landing. If you have a mal you are going to really pretty much be on your own to sort through it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #3 July 24, 2009 AFF instructors do a Mr Bill with each and every Level one student. Once a good canopy is confirmed, the instructor hops off, freefalls a few seconds then opens his own main. If the main malfunctions, the student performs emergency procedures, if not, the instructor just grabs both of the students handles and says good bye. It's the main reason we have the student open so high. That's also why I love doing AFF level ones so much. Or... Once the student is being slowed down by a deploying canopy, they're on the their own. The student is trained to perform emergency procedures so hopefully they use them if necessary.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gixzig 0 #4 July 24, 2009 Quote AFF instructors do a Mr Bill with each and every Level one student. Once a good canopy is confirmed, the instructor off, freefalls a few seconds then opens his own main. If the main malfunctions, the student performs emergency procedures, if not, the instructor just grabs both of the students handles and says good bye. It's the main reason we have the student open so high. That's also why I love doing AFF level ones so much. I'm sorry but that is some funny shit. I almost spit beer all over my key board when I read that. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dks13827 2 #5 July 24, 2009 I can't believe this question. Go to youtube and watch AFF videos, man. Please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #6 July 25, 2009 Quote AFF instructors do a Mr Bill with each and every Level one student. Once a good canopy is confirmed, the instructor hops off, freefalls a few seconds then opens his own main. If the main malfunctions, the student performs emergency procedures, if not, the instructor just grabs both of the students handles and says good bye. It's the main reason we have the student open so high. That's also why I love doing AFF level ones so much. they must have changed the training program, I'm missing all the fun, time for an instructor refresher course Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 July 26, 2009 During AFF, the main side instructor usually hangs on until the main pilot chute is out, then he tracks away. The reserve side instructor usually hangs on until the main deployment bag lifts off the student's back. After that, the student is on his own. For legal reasons, most radio instructors will not offer any further advice on how to handle malfunctions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflybabe 0 #8 July 26, 2009 "AFF instructors do a Mr Bill with each and every Level one student. Once a good canopy is confirmed, the instructor hops off, freefalls a few seconds then opens his own main. If the main malfunctions, the student performs emergency procedures, if not, the instructor just grabs both of the students handles and says good bye. It's the main reason we have the student open so high. That's also why I love doing AFF level ones so much. Or... Once the student is being slowed down by a deploying canopy, they're on the their own. The student is trained to perform emergency procedures so hopefully they use them if necessary" I couldn't believe what I was reading when I read the 1st part to the quote above! Most definitely the 2nd part applies!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #9 July 27, 2009 Quote I couldn't believe what I was reading when I read the 1st part to the quote above! Most definitely the 2nd part applies!!! I think he was joking. Or, perhaps he just forgot to mention the very small radio activated explosive charges that USPA requires be embeded in every cut-a-way handle and reserve ripcord. If the drop zone is following Basic Safety Regulations (BSR's), the main side jump master will let go when the student deploys his main, while the reserve side guy will hang on. The main JM will hopefully get his own parachute open quickly, and when he identifies that the student has a malfunction and doesn't respond he can simply pull out the transmitter and activate the handles. The buttons are color coded, so if the malfunction is a total he just pushes the red button, but if it is a partial malfunction he pushes the green button first, then the red one. One of the great things about this system is that the transmitter can be programmed to always release the cut-a-way handle first, then the reserve handle. That way, an out of sequence deployment isn't possible. I suppose that's why the USPA Board of Directors (BOD) is considering a waiver request by a major west coast drop zone that would allow them to skip emergency procedure training if they agree to use two AFF instructors, and give each an emergency transmitter. The concept of a "Mr. Bill" is absurdly retro. Modern digital technology has given us much more realistic and successful options, and improved the safety of AFF infinitely.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #10 July 27, 2009 the SCARY THING IS THAT SOMEONE OUT THERE MIGHT ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING!!Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #11 July 27, 2009 Quote the SCARY THING IS THAT SOMEONE OUT THERE MIGHT ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING!! What????? Damn! Back to the drawing board.... Oh wait...some of you youngsters don't even know what a drawing board is.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #12 July 27, 2009 Quotethe SCARY THING IS THAT SOMEONE OUT THERE MIGHT ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING!! Yes. I think skyflybabe may be one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #13 July 28, 2009 Totals, PC in tow, and what not the reserve side Instructor should be able to lend some assistance, other than that, the student is on his own after main depolyment. I cleared a PC hesitation / bag lock at the first stow caused by a weak throw from a Level one. I also videoed another instructor yanking lines to clear a bag lock that was up out of his reach, scary shit that was. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #14 July 31, 2009 QuoteThe concept of a "Mr. Bill" is absurdly retro. Modern digital technology has given us much more realistic and successful options, and improved the safety of AFF infinitely. How did I not know this? This blows my mind that I work at a modern dropzone with out the latest and greatest AFF Instuction tools. In fact, I'm a little bit mad about it. I teach ground school tomorrow and have to live knowing the instructors have a better/safer option. Thanks Tom. Changes will be in the works.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #15 August 2, 2009 QuoteIf the drop zone is following Basic Safety Regulations (BSR's), the main side jump master will let go when the student deploys his main, while the reserve side guy will hang on. To give this thread a serious turn, god forbid... What would be the harm for both the main and reserve to wait until the student's canopy is pulling the student out of their hands? Other than the possible burble issues, that could cause the student's pc to hesitate... But an instructor can always place themselves in a way to prevent that by "opening up" with a one hand grip. In the last 600 or so AFFs I have done, I have, regardless of the side I am holding on to, been there until either physics (student being pulled out of my hand) or logic (see the student's canopy coming out of the bag or lines and risers delivering the telltale tension that something is about to happen) prevents be from helping any further. Our current student rigs have not shown any hesitation or increased malfunction rates from two instructor burbles. I see no point for the main to turn and burn the second the PC is released. But I can see some really valuable reasons to stick around if there is a "Scott Lutz" type situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Decodiver 0 #16 August 2, 2009 Quote AFF instructors do a Mr Bill with each and every Level one student. Once a good canopy is confirmed, the instructor hops off, freefalls a few seconds then opens his own main. If the main malfunctions, the student performs emergency procedures, if not, the instructor just grabs both of the students handles and says good bye. It's the main reason we have the student open so high. That's also why I love doing AFF level ones so much. LMFAO, if you ever come to my DZ I'll buy your beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #17 August 5, 2009 Quote yanking lines to clear a bag lock that was up out of his reach. Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #18 August 5, 2009 Quote LMFAO, if you ever come to my DZ I'll buy your beer Next time (or shall I say first time) I'm in France, I'll take you up on that My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #19 August 5, 2009 Quote Quote yanking lines to clear a bag lock that was up out of his reach. Yeah, I understand the , but it worked out for him. The bag locked about half way to line stretch. The instructor grabed the lines with a quick yank that cleared the stow and deployment continued as expected. I was only videoing and it had my heart pumping just thinking of his hand in the lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #20 August 6, 2009 QuoteI was only videoing Hey! Post it!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyflybabe 0 #21 September 2, 2009 yeah, point taken! haha...Luckily I'm one of the instructors not the students!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #22 September 2, 2009 Quote Either instructor can pull the main as most student rigs have the pilot flap pullable from both sides. Once your main is pulled, by you or an instructor if you fail to, you are on your own. There would be no way for an instructor to stick with you through opening sequence, nor would it be even close to safe for them to try to. Most instructors aren't going to pull until their normal altitude (below the 4500-5000 an aff student pulls at) They then will land and assist the student via radio with approach and landing. If you have a mal you are going to really pretty much be on your own to sort through it. Not so. A "lot" of student rigs are set up to be standard skydiving rigs, nothing on reserve side to pull. As far as the device that Tom Buch was referring to, the RDD 1000 (Remote Deployment Device 1000) is one of the most innovative tools yet developed for AFF instructors. But Booth's Law will always apply. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
