Save a life; San Diego Paragliding training for AFF training

[dorbie 0]

I have a friend who is starting to learn to skydive with what seems like inadequate supervision and instruction.

After some initial tunnel time (5 min?) he's made two solo jumps from a Balloon, no AAD, no static line and pulling using BoC and what seems like minimal ground school (e.g. didn't know what a horseshoe mal was). I've seen video of his second jump, it was actually very stable despite jumping from a balloon, a slight over rotation was corrected by body position as he built up airspeed. However this does not alleviate my concern for his safety.

This does not seem like a safe intro to freefall (by modern standards).

I've encouraged him to seek qualified instruction, he cannot afford it.

He is a very very experienced Paraglider pilot and instructor and would be able to arrange a trade for training to P2 level in exchange for training to AFF graduation. These are about equivalent in $ value and training level although a P2 would probably get you more independence w.r.t. flying some sites. PG training is a slightly longer term deal that skydiving jumps, you'd get ground handling experience for several days and initial flights under radio guidance, then longer flights, there's really no hard limit to the amount of ground school, ground handling or flight instruction you'll get. It depends on aptitude and your availability.

P.G. instruction would be with multiple instructors at one of the best most organized training facilities in North America and include all equipment rental, you will be required to provide or purchase your own radio and helmet and he would expect an equivalent deal paying for his own jump tickets but getting gear as if he's a signed up AFF student.

So, I hope this is interesting enough to merit some space in this forum and if anyone in San Diego Elsinore or Perris is interested please reply or PM. He's going to skydive anyway so getting him some ground school and supervised jumps from altitude would keep him safer IMHO.

[davelepka 4]

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After some initial tunnel time (5 min?) he's made two solo jumps from a Balloon, no AAD, no static line and pulling using BoC and what seems like minimal ground school (e.g. didn't know what a horseshoe mal was).

That's hardcore, this guy really wants to jump.

What about just doing AFF lv 1? He'd get the benefit of the ground school, and some 'hands on' time with a couple of instructors, all for way less than the full program.

If that's too expensive, see what it costs to sit in on the ground school of the FJC. I can't imagine that it would be more than $50 or $75, and he'd be pretty far ahead of where he is now in terms of training.

Neither of these is ideal, but it's clear that this guy is going to jump no matter what, so something would be better than nothing (provided you don't find an instructor looking to trade).

Here's a question to ask your friend, what does he think he's going to do with his newfound 'skills'? Even if he manages to figure things out on his own, he won't be able to jump at a DZ without a license or a signed logbook. If he wants to jump only from private aircraft, that's one thing, but 'just figuring it out' on his own won't get him into any sort of organized DZ.

[velvetjo 0]

Interesting that he's either willing to invest in gear (but not training) or someone has loaned him a rig. Either one raises judgment concerns.

Lance

[billvon 2,380]

I'd be worried about teaching someone who has demonstrated they are just going to go off and do their own thing anyway. Most of the time I assume that students are going to follow a given progression which means they can demonstrate survival skills before they are 'turned loose' - I'd be hesitant to give a student like that just enough information to be dangerous.

Also, although I could waive my fee and teach/jump for free, that doesn't cover the cost of the slots or the gear rental. Very few instructors are going to have their own gear/airplane/pilot, whereas it's more likely for paragliding instructors to have access to a hill.

[dorbie 0]

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Interesting that he's either willing to invest in gear (but not training) or someone has loaned him a rig. Either one raises judgment concerns.

Lance

He's jumping with others who are facilitating this, his buddy is licensed and has ~250 jumps and doesn't seem to ahem, view the situation the same way I do, the 'student' was loaned a rig by someone. It very much raises judgement questions. At the same time I'm mindful of stories like Bill Booth's first skydive.

One guy might get away with it, he's taking a chance he doesn't even recognize, if this was systematic students would be going in on a regular basis.

P.S. he thinks this is some kind of mentoring and he'll be OK, that if he has a mal he can chop and there's not much to know. His perception of the situation is not the same as your and is clouded by a very long history of PG and PG Instruction.

Consider skydivers going for ground launching mentoring, from a PG perspective it falls short, but admittedly that's not the perfect analogy.

[dorbie 0]

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I'd be worried about teaching someone who has demonstrated they are just going to go off and do their own thing anyway. Most of the time I assume that students are going to follow a given progression which means they can demonstrate survival skills before they are 'turned loose' - I'd be hesitant to give a student like that just enough information to be dangerous.

Also, although I could waive my fee and teach/jump for free, that doesn't cover the cost of the slots or the gear rental. Very few instructors are going to have their own gear/airplane/pilot, whereas it's more likely for paragliding instructors to have access to a hill.

He already has enough information and "mentoring" to be dangerous. After AFF 7 he'll know a bit more about what he doesn't know, he won't go off the reservation while training, why would he need to? When complete he'll also be able to solo at a DZ and do coach jumps with his friends from altitude and be as safe as any other skydiver while there. Throughout this he'll meet some experienced grizzled AFFIs who are not as foolhardy as his 250 jump wonder of a buddy.

He's stayed alive and healthy for many years as a very young seasoned PG pilot including acro and all sorts of flying. You cannot predict what any student will do with their skydiving instruction, l hear some of the crazy fools go off and BASE jump!!!

This paraglider pilot can get access to student gear and instructors, and PG training is longer term than skydiving from personal experience. SIV and XC clinics with towing to altitude could probably be traded if there were an experienced PG who was also an AFFI. I've attended one of these SIV clinics, it was well run and great fun.

[billvon 2,380]

>Throughout this he'll meet some experienced grizzled AFFIs who are not
>as foolhardy as his 250 jump wonder of a buddy.

Well, if he wants to come by Perris when I'm teaching the FJC he can sit through the class; that may teach him a few things (and let him talk to those 'grizzled' AFFI's.)

[dorbie 0]

PMs now enabled incase anyone tried and never got through....

[humanflite 0]

How does he afford to Paraglide for a profession if he cant afford an AFF course?

Sounds weird to me....

if its true, good luck to him, the two sports are related, but very different....

[riggerrob 558]

Para-gliders only have to buy gear, not jump tickets.

The other issue is that instructors rarely pay retail for equipment.

[tkhayes 124]

"Hey I want to jump"

"Are you licensed or is this your first time here"

"No my first jump"

"OK, we offer tandem skydives or if you are a bit more hardcore, you can take the day-long AFF training class and a sort-of solo freefall"

"Well what if I don't want to do any of that - I just want to rent a parachute and go jump?"

"Well you can't do that here, there is training involved, it is a complex process to learn how to skydive and there is learning and a lot of progression involved - not to mention my own liability if you get hurt."

"So that's my only options? Kinda sounds like a money making rip-off - it does not look that complex...."

"Well you don't just go rent a airplane to learn how to fly and you don';t just rent a car to learn how to drive. There is a progression, costs and time involved in anything like this"

"So what's stopping me from just finding a parachute and going up in my friends plane and jumping out?"

"Absolutely nothing sir, go knock yourself out. I will probably read about you in the obits and your pilot friend will probably lose his license if he does not understand any of the FARs regarding skydiving."

"You guys are just jerking me around"

"Have a nice day sir."

I have had this conversation about 8 times since I moved to Florida in 1995. And these people have the right to vote?

TK

[dorbie 0]

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"So what's stopping me from just finding a parachute and going up in my friends plane and jumping out?"

I have had this conversation about 8 times since I moved to Florida in 1995. And these people have the right to vote?

TK

I suggest you go listen to Bill Booth's story about his first skydive, it's available on skydiveradio in one of his interviews, not only does he get to vote but you jump gear he helped design.

I suspect a student could do as you describe, kill themselves and remain legal throughout simply by having the right gear and informing the right authorities.

In this case the paraglider pilot thinks he's being mentored by a guy who is not qualified as an instructor.

[billvon 2,380]

>I suggest you go listen to Bill Booth's story about his first skydive . . .

?? I've heard it, but not sure what that has to do with anything.

If we just gave our first jump students a parachute, told them to put it on, then pushed them out the door, probably 4 out of 5 of them would survive. That doesn't mean it's a good way to learn to skydive. And if one of them does manage to learn and goes on to become a world champion skydiver, the argument "well, he never took an FJC so it's the way to go" would hold no water.

[dorbie 0]

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>I suggest you go listen to Bill Booth's story about his first skydive . . .

?? I've heard it, but not sure what that has to do with anything.

If we just gave our first jump students a parachute, told them to put it on, then pushed them out the door, probably 4 out of 5 of them would survive. That doesn't mean it's a good way to learn to skydive. And if one of them does manage to learn and goes on to become a world champion skydiver, the argument "well, he never took an FJC so it's the way to go" would hold no water.

Well I'm here to try to avert that risky learning process so I appreciate the risks. However when someone starts ridiculing people for thinking they can learn this way (as happened in the post I replied to) it is absolutely appropriate to point out that some of the heroes in skydiving learned exactly this way.

It's not about saying this is the right way to learn (that much should be obvious given the context), it's that our perceptions of what's required of training are based on our experiences and students don't have the experience to know better, especially if they meet a skydiver who offers to "mentor" them, so ridicule is misplaced.

Try this, take a FJC student before the course, give him 2 minutes on flying the canopy, show him how to read his alti, tell him where his handles are and to chop if he has a malfunction and then walk him towards the plane. My bet is a large percentage would willingly following you ready to skydive after a brief introduction if they are not expecting a full day of FJC and might yet if tell them you usually do an introductory jump before the FJC to familiarize them. Most students don't know any better, and don't have any firm expectations of what training involves.