Playing "catch the drogue" with the vidiot

[jerry81 10]

It's been only two years since I got my rating, but try as I might, I can't recall if we ever covered the event of the drogue/bridle entangling with another person in freefall.
So I'm wondering;
-how much will the drag of the entangled person slow down the tandem pair, considering the drogue does not inflate?
-is the drag high enough to extract the bag on drogue release?
-should you manually clear the risers after cutting away the main with the vidiot still entangled with the bridle?

But now seriously, I had a scare last Saturday, jumping with a person new to flying camera but by all means qualified to do it (900+ jumps, AFF instructor). My mistake was to not emphasize the importance of exit timing to him in the plane, as he'd already gotten a foot in the face on a previous jump with me (and we'd discussed it afterwards).
So out we went, with a ready-set-go and this time without contact. I took perhaps a second longer than usual to toss the drogue because the passenger went a bit fetal on me, and my first thought after throwing was that the thing did not inflate. I looked over my shoulder to check, just in time to see the camera flyer dropping away from the drogue and parking himself in front of me with a look on his face that said he knew exactly how bad he'd just screwed up. I wear a full-face on my tandems, so my own expression luckily did not appear on the client's video.

Rest of the jump was uneventful. We had another discussion once we landed, starting with "This.Cannot.Happen!", followed by a bit of ass-chewing and plenty of advice on how to exit. Like I said, my one mistake was not reminding him once again to mind his timing- it went through my mind as we were getting up to jump, but at this point I feel that talk like that might (further) confuse/freak the passenger, plus I thought that at this level of experience and having covered the issue already, it wouldn't happen again....
Guess I know a little better now.

[humanflite 0]

Im by no means a Ti so cant offer advice on the drogue entanglement bit, apart from get a new vidiot!!

But at my DZ and several others I have been to (UK) the camera exits from a float on the outside of the plane, thereby meaning they leave at the same time as the tandem pair.

I would think this is safer from a point of view of not having the vidiot above you, with the risks that could pose?

[PhreeZone 14]

Leaving form a Float position puts you in perfect line for this to happen.

I'm wondering about the correct procedure for an extra flyer entangling in the drogue. I think each situation is going to be unique and a crap shoot at best.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[diablopilot 2]

Advise you videographer that if not absolutely sure of the exit timing, they should "Peal" off the aircraft after the tandem. This will make if near impossible to get into one of the danger areas.

Remember if you're on a Vector or Sigma system the videographer must have a a minimum of 100 camera jumps as well, and just wearing a camera while skydiving doesn't count.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Skydivesg 6]

Of the 900 jumps this guy has, what type of jumps were they? FS, FF, Sit, any competition jumps? What kind of exits has he mostly done?

The reason I ask is that exit timing is a learned skill. Some people take a long time to figure it out.
Competiton helps.

I exit based on the movement of the TI's hips. I watch the count but what I pay more attention to is the movement of the hips. And of course I want to be below the tandem pair for the best exit framing.

I would rather be low than high. And if I mis-time the exit by being too low, my TI's will come down to me.

It'a a team effort.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[AdD 1]

Drogue Inflated:
I would disconnect RSL, give cameraman some freefall time to get clear, if he was not I would cut away and release the drogue and leave him with the mess, probably would be a good idea to make sure your risers are clear before deploying reserve, remembering he is on top of you somewhere. Not a good situation!!

Drogue not inflated:
Disconnect RSL, Cutaway, release drogue, try to track away a bit!
Any thoughts guys?

I also think when a cameraman is entangled you have to share the blame equally. Remember you are in control of deploying the drogue, if you threw and didn't know where he was it was an easily avoidable mistake, especially with a newbie !!!! Look first !! I have about 1200 tandems and I don't know if I would make these decisions in the proper order so I try to avoid the rsl's.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Im by no means a Ti so cant offer advice on the drogue entanglement bit, apart from get a new vidiot!!

But at my DZ and several others I have been to (UK) the camera exits from a float on the outside of the plane, thereby meaning they leave at the same time as the tandem pair.

I would think this is safer from a point of view of not having the vidiot above you, with the risks that could pose?

Where does the drogue go?

It depends with various TMs if you can exit right with them or not. With a few that would be unadvisable as they throw the drogue right away and leaving at exactly the same time you'll get a faceful of drogue. Leaving earlier is always safer when backfloating. If you miss the count and the TM leaves and you're late, STAY PUT and jump off after them, the drogue'll go the other way and you can still get a nice visual.

Al least this vidiot knew he screwed up, seen a vid of a newbie tandem cameraflyer (with 1000 jumps...) ending up above the TM and blaming the TM for sliding under him Luckily that TM held onto the drogue until cameraflyer was out of the way, and cameraflyer found other things to film later on.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[yoink 321]

Quote

Remember if you're on a Vector or Sigma system the videographer must have a a minimum of 100 camera jumps as well, and just wearing a camera while skydiving doesn't count.

Can you explain what you mean by this JP? How does one get 100 camera jumps if jumping with a camera doesn't count?

Do they have to be dedicated team video slots?

[lowpull 0]

Hell, I'll answer this one. I know lots of jumpers that wear a camera ever jump.
This in no way means that they are to be considered dedicated video jumps.

Just because you have a camera on the side of your freefly helmet, does not a videographer make of you.
I consider a video jump to be a jump where the sole focus of the skydive is to fly your slot to capture video evidence of that jump.
You wear a camera and the end video is the goal of your skydive.

Does this help?

Your gear, your slot,your mind set,everything on that jump is about you making sure you video is in focus, in frame and does not interfere with the world going on on the other side of that view finder.


Ralph

[pilotdave 0]

I dont disagree, but does UPT say that those 100 camera jumps have to be dedicated camera slots anywhere? I've heard that keeping a camera in a jumpsuit pocket doesn't qualify, but never that there are specific requirements for those camera jumps. I'm also told that a toothpick flag in a pocket doesn't qualify as a flag jump for a pro rating. What gives?!
Dave

[Superfletch 1]

Quote

I'm also told that a toothpick flag in a pocket doesn't qualify as a flag jump for a pro rating. What gives?!
Dave

WHAT!?!?!? Are you telling me I have to redo all those flag jumps?

Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher
D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I
Videographer/Photographer

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

I also think when a cameraman is entangled you have to share the blame equally. Remember you are in control of deploying the drogue, if you threw and didn't know where he was it was an easily avoidable mistake, especially with a newbie !!!! Look first !! I have about 1200 tandems and I don't know if I would make these decisions in the proper order so I try to avoid the rsl's.

I couldn't disagee more. If I feel I need to worry about the camera flyer on the tandem, I'm not leaving the plane. In this incident the student took the TM for a ride. Once the tM got stable (he is starting to go fast now) you are saying he should take the time to look over his shoulder to make sure the camera flyer is not incompetent. If there is any delay throwing the drogue the camera flyer will almost always be high; it is their job to recognise that before it happens and move out of the cone of death. If they cannot be counted on to do that, they should not be videoing tandem.

[jerry81 10]

Forgot to mention that we use a tailgate (An-28). The cameraman hangs over the 'hole' in the tail and the TI basically just steps out and lays a slow gainer. It's a pretty easy exit- about the only time we do a floater is with instructional tandems (levels 1&2 of our AFP program) and so far once or twice with a passenger that was too freaked looking out into the open air.

The door on this plane is not big enough for the camera flyer to leave after us from his position (unless he's following us out from inside and missing the exit shot). If he's still hanging there as we jump, chances are we're taking him along...

Now, when I'm doing video, I prefer to be dropping past the edge of the door just as the TI's feet leave it and if it's a light tandem or I know that the drogue will be coming out the moment they're belly to relative wind, I'll track up the hill to stay close. If it's a heavier load or I know that the TI takes his time after exit, I'll probably flip to hd for a few seconds, again to get as little separation as possible.
The only time I was taken by surprise was with a TI new to the dz who basically just walked out without even looking at me...which once again shows the importance of discussing the exit timing, if you're unsure, whether you're the TI or the camera.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

I also think when a cameraman is entangled you have to share the blame equally. Remember you are in control of deploying the drogue, if you threw and didn't know where he was it was an easily avoidable mistake, especially with a newbie !!!! Look first !! I have about 1200 tandems and I don't know if I would make these decisions in the proper order so I try to avoid the rsl's.

I couldn't disagee more. If I feel I need to worry about the camera flyer on the tandem, I'm not leaving the plane. In this incident the student took the TM for a ride. Once the tM got stable (he is starting to go fast now) you are saying he should take the time to look over his shoulder to make sure the camera flyer is not incompetent. If there is any delay throwing the drogue the camera flyer will almost always be high; it is their job to recognise that before it happens and move out of the cone of death. If they cannot be counted on to do that, they should not be videoing tandem.

Being outside the cone of death is the vidiot's responsibility, but dealing with screw-ups requires a team effort. You can be 100% in the right and still die. The TI's first and foremost job is to keep himself and his student alive. This would include not throwing the drogue into a googlyfucked vidiot. Chew/kick his ass on the ground? Sure. But in the air ya gotta do the smart thing, and that has included clearing before throwing since AFF.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[AdD 1]

Quote

If I feel I need to worry about the camera flyer on the tandem, I'm not leaving the plane.

When I jump with cameramen who do a rear float exit I don't have trouble keeping an eye on him pre-drogue because I leave with my body parallel to the wing. Most of the time a bit of delay on the drogue helps him out because he's already lower. Still I don't really care if he has to dive a bit if it means I know I'm throwing my drogue into clear air. You have to admit even good cameramen make mistakes with exit timing sometimes.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[shaark 0]

Quote

Im by no means a Ti so cant offer advice on the drogue entanglement bit, apart from get a new vidiot!!

But at my DZ and several others I have been to (UK) the camera exits from a float on the outside of the plane, thereby meaning they leave at the same time as the tandem pair.

I would think this is safer from a point of view of not having the vidiot above you, with the risks that could pose?

No matter what aircraft, what exit position, or what timing, it is not difficult for the suitably competent camera flyer to slide sideways, away from the tandem's relative wind track. It's not hard to understand where the drogue will go.
Camera guy should have mentally briefed his body positions for the first seconds / fractions of a second; always watching the tandem, and being prepared to react to unforeseen occurrences after exit.

Really just an application of never being above or below the tandem.

Nobody is perfect, so as mentioned above teamwork is important.

tanstaafl

[riggerrob 558]

What part of "always pull handles in the same sequence every jump" did you not grasp?

Strong Tandem Examiner

[riggerrob 558]

Sounds like the small tail hatch makes for an awkward exit from AN-28.

Rear float is the best slot for videographers on most twin-engined airplanes.

Sorry, but it has been decades since I have done tandems form tail gates (Skyvan and Cariboo), so I cannot tell you the finer points of tail gate exits.

Text book says: videographers should exit a half second early or two seconds late. That prevents them from being directly below or directly above the tandem pair.
Good videographers routinely side slide (on relative wind) a bit to ensure separation until after the drogue is deployed.

Asking a tandem instructor to look before throwing a drogue only works on good days. Many times he is too busy struggling with unstable students, so that shifts responsibility to the videographer to stay off to the side (relative wind).

[AdD 1]

So you think it would be a good idea to deploy the your main canopy with your cameraman entangled in your drogue? I gotta disagree with you there Rob. I have some tandem cutaways by the way and so far I've pulled them in the right order just fine.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[riggerrob 558]

Rob. I have some tandem cutaways by the way and so far I've pulled them in the right order just fine.

[efs4ever 3]

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So you think it would be a good idea to deploy the your main canopy with your cameraman entangled in your drogue? I gotta disagree with you there Rob. I have some tandem cutaways by the way and so far I've pulled them in the right order just fine.

It would be disconnected from RSL and chopped before being released. At least that's the book procedure. Might not hurt as much.

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

[feuergnom 22]

correct me if i am wrong but from my understanding there are differences in how to handle this kind of situation on strong rigs (coupled drogue release) and vectors/sigmas and clones thereof

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[steveorino 7]

Quote

Im by no means a Ti so cant offer advice on the drogue entanglement bit, apart from get a new vidiot!!

But at my DZ and several others I have been to (UK) the camera exits from a float on the outside of the plane, thereby meaning they leave at the same time as the tandem pair.

I would think this is safer from a point of view of not having the vidiot above you, with the risks that could pose?

NOTHING, nothing is idiot proof. I use to exit float on tandems and got a face full of drogue from a TI that literally tossed on the step as he left. As a TI I don't toss until I'm stable. Tempting as it has been with "some" students, I don't toss to get stable.

steveOrino

[utahsteve1 0]

I've done tandem jumps with 20+ jumpers in the air with me. It is 100% my responsibility to know and vet each skydiver in my airspace. It is also 100% my responsibility to know where the drogue will end up when I place it. If a videographer or skydiver gets hit with a drogue, it is not his fault. It is the TM's fault, 100%. If, after I place the drogue, the videographer or skydiver in my airspace fly's into it, then it his fault, 100%
If you get hit with a drogue because the TM dumped it right out the door, contact the Tandem I/E and report it. It is one of the primary issues concerning UPT in the I/E manual. I have grounded people in the past for re-training concerning this issue. It is no joke.

Steveorino's got it 100% right...

(this is from another thread) Whens the last time y'all considered the correct procedure for a skydiver entangled in your drogue? How's this sound? Say it looks like he's tied up real good. There is no potential for a drogue release. This is a reserve only situation. You must immediately upon determining that he is not going to untangle, disconnect the RSL and cutaway. This move sets you and your passenger up for future clean air. Next, try to cut the drogue bridle with the hook knife to free you from the entangled skydiver. Why? Because I bet he would much rather just have to deal with a bridle and drogue vs. drogue, bridle, d-bag, main, suspension lines, risers, I mean cut the guy some slack (bad pun) IF YOU'VE GOT THE TIME. Then move to clean air and deploy the reserve only.

The alternative is if you can't for some reason cut the drogue bridle, you have to dump your main into the poor guy, fall away, move to clean air and deploy the reserve(don't look back).

Now let's say that just after you chop and disconnect the RSL, the SOB manages to clear himself and you're back to standard drogue fall. I personally am going to deploy the main, fall away, get clean air and deploy the reserve. I would just as soon not deploy into a drogue if I don't have to(although it appears to be relatively safe to do so).

Utah

[docjohn 0]

Yes, a rear floating vidiot can catch a drogue in the face. In fact I have a nice video of it happening to me rear floating on an Otter. Fortunately the drogue didn't catch on anything and the rest of the dive

I'll post the video if I can find it.

Doc
http://www.manifestmaster.com/video