0
ceandries

Students that do dumb things

Recommended Posts

Quote

...and when I say I gave the bowling speech I didn't say "your're not cut out for this sport, don't come back" I told him that if he isn't going to take this sport seriously he should think about taking up another one.



The "bowling speech" means "you're not cut out for this sport, don't come back".

Virtually all students make poor decisions. Virtually all skydivers will get make mistakes after licensing. Some of them will get hurt, most of them by making mistakes. Some people surely shouldn't be skydiving and instructors can't use the bowling speech lightly. If someone isn't cut out to jump it'll be obvious to a lot of people, not just one, so in those situations bring it to the attention of other instructors and talk about it with them first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that the Bowling speech should be given in only the worst cases. You most likely would have given it to me. At somewhere in the 12 to 17 jump numbers my pattern went alittle too far downwind for the conditions and found myself backing up on final. I really had no idea of what I should do so I just watched myself back up over the fence to a flare and PLF in a cow pasture. I walk back (rig covered in cow shit) feeling horrible about my lack of skill. Three things happened later, 1 my instructor explained how to fly my pattern based on wind conditions again, with me now able to SEE the effects better. 2 The DZO said hey you got my rig covered in cow shit!!(laughing) good job saving yourself. I later found out that I did the safest thing for my situation. 3 Students were no longer allowed to jump in winds that high.

My point is that if this wasn't treated as a learning experience by my instructor and the DZO I might have quit. I had TEACHERS, and because of that during 4-way scrambles with about 60 jumps I bested my team on canopy accuracy. (Teams equaled, 2 highly exp. 1 mid level 1 newbie)

Thank you Tom and Bill for being TEACHERS and not being self rightous skygods.
ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Probably best to say nothing to the student initially.

The student should have a few minutes to go over the dive in his/her mind. You should go over your observations with the instructors. Very definitely give them input as to the student's manner.
Then standard student de-brief and remedial training; your input as required by the instructors. If they want to give a bowling speech, fine.

If the instructors are ok with the situation, then I suppose that's it. If you really feel further input is necessary, talk to the instructors again, and the dzo, although that may call into question the instructors' judgement. Depends on the situation, I suppose.

Where I learned to skydive, the dzo firmly believed he was NOT in the business of teaching everyone to skydive. If you did something in his opinion stupid, no matter your jump numbers, he had no problem in not letting you jump from his aircraft again. You could hang out and party, though.

If it is really, really an issue for you, well, I don't know. Tough on you mentally if that person screws up on another jump and ends up dead, or kills someone else.

Non skydiving, but years ago I arrived at a group of friends messing around. I kind of saw potential danger, but said nothing. Less than a minute later one of my friends was dead. I had to give useless cpr on his body for 20 mns until medical help arrived.
I get to live with "if only I had --------"

GLIDEANGLE above, well said!

On balance, though, I do believe everyone is entitled to go to hell their own way. Try not to take me with you.

tanstaafl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As a student (been s student since 1981 with 25 years break in between) I do not mind getting a bit of a blast from an instructor if I have stuffed up (happen once years ago) BUT WHAT I did not like was a packer who gave me more of a blast I then found out he had done ONE JUMP. He was told where to go. What annoys me more is some students who argue with their instructor on why they did not pass a jump. Bad luck if you did not perform well enough to pass the jump go jump again quit arguing the Instructors are the boss.
I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

there was a little more context to the story that i did not mention... his attitude after it happened was, "oh that was reallly cool and funny, hey all my whuffo friends thought it was awesome." I tried to explain to him how dangerous it was and he shrugged it off and disagreed with me.
I was the person to talk to him about it because the two most experienced instructors on the dz were still in the plane and his jm gave me the task of watching his landing and debriefing him.

When his jm got down, she agreed with me.



Thank you for the clarification :)
However, i agree with the poster upthread that "immediately" after landing might not be the best time for a 'final' judgement of his attitude. he might just be still shock-full of adrenaline:

The student in my example had clambered out of the ditch, limped around with his instructor to find the freebag, was driven back to the DZ, picked the worst of the duckweed out of the reserve canopy and hung it out to dry.
Next he was debriefed. His instructor first evaluated the freefall part, meaning the excercises the student performed before pull time and even signed off a task on the student's A-card.
Next, the student was asked how stressfull he experienced the reserve incident on a scale from 1 to 10.
He made an off-hand remark about not being stressed so easily, so three perhaps - and saw the jaw of both his instructor and the instructor in training who was observing drop.

The student got that reprimand and he clearly remembers thinking that this was a bit of a strong punishment. Though the instructor declined to ground the student, the student chose not to make another jump that day, as his ankle was starting to really bother him.
Instead he went to sit in the bar with his foot high and an ice-pack on it.

Hours later, after being surrounded by and having told his story a gaziallion times to concerned fellow-jumpers, the student was drinking a coke and finally having a moment to himself.
He stared at his coke and suddenly thought: "No FXC and three seconds later and I would have impated at line stretch..."
I.. er, I mean, he started to shake uncontrollably so that he couldn't even hold his glass steady enough to take a calming drink.
Cue sleepless nights and nightmares.....
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Several years back, I jumped at a small DZ in Michigan. We were a static-line DZ, lots of Racers and three Cessnas. The DZO's wife managed the student operation/manifest. (anybody whose been around awhile should figure that out.. Doesn't matter anymore, the DZ is under different management, etc)

Kid from Canada is on freefall status, having cleared the dope-rope, and makes his first clear & pull jump where he totally ignores the radio and flies off into the sunset (well, not really, he was flying north and it was nowhere near the end of the day) away from the landing area, and eventually lands in one of the many cornfields surrounding the DZ.

When we finally got to him, we said "Why'd you fly away from the DZ?" He claimed that his canopy had a "built-in turn" and he couldn't find the DZ. All of us spectating scratched our heads at his explanation, since he was flying straight while he flew away from the DZ. Plus, with a built in turn, he should have wound up finding the DZ again as he went in a circle. He couldn't explain why he was flying straight away from the DZ, or why he didn't bother to listen to the guy on the radio imploring him to turn to locate the DZ. The DZO's wife, a former grade-school teacher, isn't buying what he's selling, and her body language says so.

We get him back to manifest and de-geared, picking corn stalks out of his stuff. He's all jazzed up about how he did, and gets himself manifested for another load.

We're watching as that load gets out, and our intrepid student, Wrong-Way Corrigan, manages to take what amounts to a 20+ second delay from 5000ft. We're talking what should have been a 2-3 second hop & pop winds up with us watching this kid burn thru 3000 ft flat and stable, making no attempts at pulling until he's blasting thru 2k. We're talking he was going long enough, and LOW enough that there were 4-5 of us on the ground like the Groovers going "pull it, son, do something!"

He lands on the student target, gathers his main and comes walking in all excited "Wow, that was a great jump! "

"What altitude did you pull at?"

"4000!" he chirps rather brightly. To those of us on the ground, we're reasonably certain that 4000 came and went in the first 10 seconds.

"Try again. What altitude did you pull at?"

"Uhh, 3500?"

"Keep going..."

"I, uh, well, I know I pulled above 3500... I think.."

By now we're inside and he's peeling his stuff off and swearing up and down there is no way in hell he pulled low. The rigs are equipped with Sentinels that are, as I dimly recall, set for 1500 ft. But we were always told that Sentinels have a 1000 ft +/- variation or something like that. He was definitely in the range of a potential AAD fire.

Finally, the DZO's wife, who was very proper and friendly, who we'd never heard say a single bad thing, gets fed up with this kid's excuses and barks "Take your shit off, hang it up over there, and get the hell out of here."
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chad

I hoped that we taught you better than that at the coaches course.
Are you sure that your "hook" and the subsequent broken bones haven't made you overly sensitive?
At least HE walked away.
Seriously, it's not unusual for someone just getting started with students to overreact on the side of caution. Give yourself a few years and a few more student (and coach candidate) inspired grey hairs. You were great in the CCC and you'll make a great instructor, but just like during a jump, if things go to shit, it's sometimes best to take a deep breath, exhale slowly, and then deal with it.
Bill
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great story!
However, I really have a problem with terms like "dope-rope". The first few jumps are intimidating enough for students without them getting the idea that the level their at makes them putzes. Another danger is that it might encourage the student to want too much too fast - they don't want to be uncool anymore.
Also, did you guys consider that the "built in turn" could have been an off-heading opening? That the first thing that came to my mind when I read the story.
In the second jump, did the instructor on the spot check the students altimeter? If it did point at 0, did they verify it by sending it up with a pilot/instructor?
Of course it's easy for me tp second-guess peoples decisions from the comfortable position of a keyboard..:)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ceandries

I would sincerely like to hear your reasoning to suggest someone to stop skydiving? You have 200 jumps and are a static line instructor so as an *experienced* instructor, why did you choose to tell this guy to stop?

Pine trees. According to your post you would suggest taking it into the tree. Have you done a tree landing? Is there a better option? What would you do besides make the decision higher? How would you get it across to the student the main landing area may not be an option and a second option should be taken.

By the way, you meant barely missing a truck. Nearly missing a truck means he hit the truck.

I've a few stories that if I find time to type them legibly (see my sigline) I'll post one or 2.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

ceandries

I would sincerely like to hear your reasoning to suggest someone to stop skydiving? You have 200 jumps and are a static line instructor so as an *experienced* instructor, why did you choose to tell this guy to stop?

Pine trees. According to your post you would suggest taking it into the tree. Have you done a tree landing? Is there a better option? What would you do besides make the decision higher? How would you get it across to the student the main landing area may not be an option and a second option should be taken.

By the way, you meant barely missing a truck. Nearly missing a truck means he hit the truck.

I've a few stories that if I find time to type them legibly (see my sigline) I'll post one or 2.



And barely missing a truck also means he didnt hit anything ;)

So no harm, no foul I say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A student last season (5 or 10 jumps, just off radio) tried to make it back to the landing area. The wind was fairly strong but steady and he was barely covering ground. In his flight path there is a row of pine trees with a parking lot on the downwind side. He gets about 10 feet above the pine trees and decides he isn't going to make it over and instead of taking a 4 mph landing in a big soft pine tree, he turns about a 130, ltowards the parking lot, and lands mostly downwind, nearly missing a truck.
i gave him the bowling speech.



You think a student should land in a tree rather than a parking lot? Have you ever landed in a tree? I got some news for you, trees are not soft. I have landed in a few trees with a kevlar jumpsuit and fully caged motorcycle helmet built specifically for landing in trees and it hurts like fuck.
Are you teaching students to be so afraid of a downwind landing that they will choose an obstacle instead? You are making some bad teaching choices.
I think you should think about giving up coaching students; you don't seem to have the knack for it. Maybe you can find something else to coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I really have a problem with terms like...

:|[:/]>:(:SB|:|[:/]>:(:S:|[:/]>:(:SB|:|[:/]>:(:S:|


If you keep mugging like that your face wil get stuck, you know...
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

A student last season (5 or 10 jumps, just off radio) tried to make it back to the landing area. The wind was fairly strong but steady and he was barely covering ground. In his flight path there is a row of pine trees with a parking lot on the downwind side. He gets about 10 feet above the pine trees and decides he isn't going to make it over and instead of taking a 4 mph landing in a big soft pine tree, he turns about a 130, ltowards the parking lot, and lands mostly downwind, nearly missing a truck.
i gave him the bowling speech.



You think a student should land in a tree rather than a parking lot? Have you ever landed in a tree? I got some news for you, trees are not soft. I have landed in a few trees with a kevlar jumpsuit and fully caged motorcycle helmet built specifically for landing in trees and it hurts like fuck.
Are you teaching students to be so afraid of a downwind landing that they will choose an obstacle instead? You are making some bad teaching choices.
I think you should think about giving up coaching students; you don't seem to have the knack for it. Maybe you can find something else to coach
.


WHOA!!!!!
Seems to me like you're committing the sin you're condemning.
This is no more reason for Chad to give up coaching/instructing than it may have been for his student to give up skydiving. Yes, I'd agree he may have over-reacted to what his student did, but remember, he's just started working with students. I've probably made every mistake an instructor can make without injuring a student. Most of these mistakes were made when I was green as grass, and I'm thanksful that they weren't all subject to review by this board. I learned from them and never made the same mistake twice. That's all we can ask from ourselves or anyone else. At the very least give him credit for erring on the side of safety rather than pushing a student beyond his capacity, which seems to be a much more common error, and one that is a lot more dangerous.
Hang in there, Chad.
Like I said before, you're going to be a great instructor. Just remember, students can generate as much or more adrenaline than a skydive. Take that deep breath.

And I bet you're sorry you started this thread.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, OP dude definitely hang in there! Teachers are students that get paid! Isn't that a privilege! In your case, the student is paying you so you are in the customer service business, too. At least you are not going to end up like some fuk who thinks, I'm The Instructor Skygod ! Too much ego in this sport.
You can also consider this, one is not getting That quality education that makes one qualified to really teach...so at least make it a good memorable :P experience for your paying students..
cheers :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This is no more reason for Chad to give up coaching/instructing than it may have been for his student to give up skydiving. Yes, I'd agree he may have over-reacted to what his student did, but remember, he's just started working with students. I've probably made every mistake an instructor can make without injuring a student. Most of these mistakes were made when I was green as grass, and I'm thanksful that they weren't all subject to review by this board. I learned from them and never made the same mistake twice. That's all we can ask from ourselves or anyone else. At the very least give him credit for erring on the side of safety rather than pushing a student beyond his capacity, which seems to be a much more common error, and one that is a lot more dangerous.
Hang in there, Chad.
Like I said before, you're going to be a great instructor. Just remember, students can generate as much or more adrenaline than a skydive. Take that deep breath.



I think you just made Andrew's point for him.

The above should have been the speech that the OP gave to the student (with some changes to the relavent nouns), not the one about bowling.

- Dan G

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

A student last season (5 or 10 jumps, just off radio) tried to make it back to the landing area. The wind was fairly strong but steady and he was barely covering ground. In his flight path there is a row of pine trees with a parking lot on the downwind side. He gets about 10 feet above the pine trees and decides he isn't going to make it over and instead of taking a 4 mph landing in a big soft pine tree, he turns about a 130, ltowards the parking lot, and lands mostly downwind, nearly missing a truck.
i gave him the bowling speech.



I think that one mistake, even a major one, does not warrant a bowling speech.... there needs to be a lot of poor judgement calls, a bad attitude, history of unsafe behaviors, etc that would make me want to give a student a bowling speech. I had a student just like yours... I was a brand new coach, maybe 300 jumps, student pulled a similar maneuver (low turn, ground came up fast, no flare, butt landing) and broke his back in two places. I spent a lot of time working with him (after he healed up) and a year to the day after his injury, he got his A license. He's now considering being a coach, and will most likely be a very good one, in part because of his own experience.



I've given the speech once and had a student spare me giving the speech once. The former was a student who'd made a series of several bad decisions on several consecutive jumps. Instead of quitting, he went to another DZ and earned himself a trip to ICU a short time later. The latter was a student who freefell to AAD territory on a 4500' hop & pop. I met him for a beer the next day to potentially give him the speech, and he offered that maybe he should stick to mountain climbing where he can pause and think when things get sideways, so I just agreed.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0