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cpoxon

2 hours training for AFF?

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The traditional AFF program had a specific heading maintenance requirement, and that included during deployment by levels 4 and 5.



What was the heading maintenance requirement? Was it 45 degrees? 90 degrees? !80 degrees?

If it was specific what was the number?



Sorry, I should have looked at your profile earlier. Suffice to say that if students are getting to you for coach jumps, they should be able to hold a heading during deployment as a rule. If they can't, I suggest you let your Chief Instructor know. You do know who your Chief Instructor is, don't you?
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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>It would be more interesting to see if those "AFF" instructors get to keep their ratings.

Shortest class I've seen was an AFF JCC that took just under 90 minutes. I had no idea what those students knew when they jumped. They all did OK though.

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Out of curiosity, how many instructors per student for a normal 6-hour FJC? How long do you think it could safely be shortened if it was two AFF-Is per student, so each student could go at his own pace?

I know my FJC (5 1/2 hours, one instructor for 6 students) could have been about two hours shorter, if one of the students wasn't there. A lot of material got repeated just for him, while the rest of us were ready to move on.

I've heard of very safe, successful 4-hour FJCs with one instructor for 4 students.

So 2:1 you get *very* personalized instruction, and lots of personal attention.
Brian

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I was the only one doing AFF as I realized it was not a season for skydiving the time I started :ph34r:
A whole DZ, I haven't seen more then a couple of fun jumpers and tandems that day. Had 2 instructors available, and if I remember correctly I showed up around 9am, was done with ground school at around 12-1pm (with a written "test" at the end and including a few breaks in between)
BTW, it was awesome, it felt like I had a whole DZ focused on me B|

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My target is 4 working hours with 4 to 6 students so break times are not included, lunch is on their own time.

I can see that with the right instructor student match that a 2 hour FJC is vary possible. The information is being delivered at accelerated pace and the information in turn is being assimilated at an equally rate. I have had one student like this, lacking a better word, gifted where skills and the knowledge aspect were easy for them so teaching again was easy. It doesn’t happen vary often but it does and they are out there.
Memento Mori

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As long as everything works correctly, the short training could suffice.

Maybe the class only took 2 hours.

A few years ago I trained my brother-in-law for his first jump, static line. He was very sharp and athletic. I ran him through all the training, including mockup, hanging harness, PLF's, the works. He did great. When we were done, I looked at my watch. My 3-4 hour S/L class had taken just 90 minutes, no short cuts.

Sometimes you just get a quick learner. An athletic college student is probably the ideal student.

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For me it's within 45-90 degrees by the time they graduate. (45 goal, 90 barely acceptable if everything else looks good and they're aware of it.)



I guess I am too tough more then 45 degree rotation from wave off until they let go of the PC, this is a no pass on a AFF graduation skydive.

As for what I see in the video this is an example of lost heading control during the pull. I would not pass him he needs to demonstrate better control especially on the (Cat-E) stability recovery skydives.
Memento Mori

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I have done AFF classes in 2.5 hours before. One on one with a student who is heads up and you are on a time crunch. before you critique, you would have to actually watch the entire training process and see what is missing or not missing. I would easily argue that I did not miss anything.

malfunction videos? optional. written tests? optional. huge amounts of time on every possible malfunction? too much time.

If you do it as a practical skills training class, it is not that hard. You spend most or almost all the time actually walking through the parts of the skydive with the proper props. The student does, and therefore learns.

If they do it 3 times, they have learned it, move on.

Aircraft exits, freefall and body position, deployment, canopy flight and landing. Walk through the malfunction pictures and rehearse the cutaways. While you are gearing them up, you talk about aircraft emergencies. Go to the plane.

At most dropzones, there is at least an hour of readiness from the time they manifest until you are exiting the airplane. what are you doing with that time? I spend it with my student reviewing and rehearsing anyway.

TK

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Sorry, I should have looked at your profile earlier. Suffice to say that if students are getting to you for coach jumps, they should be able to hold a heading during deployment as a rule. If they can't, I suggest you let your Chief Instructor know. You do know who your Chief Instructor is, don't you?



Wow. I asked you what your specific requirements and / or thoughts are about what qualifies as a "spin" and now you're suggesting that I have no idea what the TLOs are for the students I get and whether or not I even have a clue who I should go to at my DZ if I have doubts or questions? :S

I was wondering what your thought process was. I wasn't wondering who my chief instructor was.
Owned by Remi #?

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A written and studied course syllabus prior to the actual training will also make a huge difference in the amount of training time. If the student shows up already knowing hand signals, equipment nomenclature, exit type, and has a basic grasp of canopy control and flight pattern it makes teaching and review much shorter.

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Sorry, I should have looked at your profile earlier. Suffice to say that if students are getting to you for coach jumps, they should be able to hold a heading during deployment as a rule. If they can't, I suggest you let your Chief Instructor know. You do know who your Chief Instructor is, don't you?



Wow. I asked you what your specific requirements and / or thoughts are about what qualifies as a "spin" and now you're suggesting that I have no idea what the TLOs are for the students I get and whether or not I even have a clue who I should go to at my DZ if I have doubts or questions? :S

I was wondering what your thought process was. I wasn't wondering who my chief instructor was.



Actually I didn't say anything to imply that you don't know the TLO's. What I am suggesting is that you - as a USPA coach - should question the abilities of any student that makes it to the coaching phase of the program and still can't hold a heading during deployment. I'm also suggesting that you question the Chief Instructor and the entire program if the students' ability to hold a heading during deployment isn't a requirement to graduate to coach jumps.

Being able to maintain a heading (heading control) is important for a great many reasons. That's why the Integrated Student Program requires students to master "heading awareness" in Cat B, and "unassisted freefall with heading maintenance" in Cat C.


Also....

From the BSR's

(3) All students must jump with one USPA AFF rating holder until demonstrating stability and heading control prior to and within five seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation.

Since the BSR's require students to demonstrate stability and heading control prior to and within 5 seconds after initiating two intentional disorienting maneuvers involving a back-to-earth presentation, it would stand to reason that the student should be able to hold a heading during something as simple as deploying a parachute.

Your insistence to qualify the student's actions as a "turn" or "spin" is irrelevant. Regardless of the speed of the turn, it's the ability to stop it and re-establish heading control that satisfies the TLO's.

Also, the BSR's dictate that students jump with AFF rating holders until - among many other things - they can maintain a heading during unassisted freefall. A program that waives this requirement through ignorance or design is breaking the BSR's (not just recommendations). As I said before, if it is standard practice at your DZ to allow students who can't hold a heading during deployment to move forward to coaching jumps, you should question the entire program and whoever oversees it.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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stop it and re-establish heading control that satisfies the TLO's.



You are right I always tell my student that if your in the middle of your pull sequence and you start to rotate stop the rotation and then pull or I will make you redo the level:S


The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

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oh this is good. His submission video. skip right to about 2:00 mins.

for those of you that don't want to take the time to watch it here is a little gem from the end of his video.

Quote

But instead of just going skydiving I'd like to take it a little further for my first try. I'd like to go without a parachute for the first time just like Travis Pastrana recently did.



Do we really want someone like that to stay in the sport?

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>I guess I am too tough more then 45 degree rotation from wave off until they
>let go of the PC, this is a no pass on a AFF graduation skydive.

Well, like I said, it depends.

If a student starts turning as he goes in to pull, and continues it, getting faster and faster as his parachute opens, and he turns 60 degrees during the whole thing, it's a fail. He's not demonstrating heading control.

If a student stays relatively on heading, comes in to pull, is startled to see me there next to him, turns 90 to face me as he releases his PC, and then stops his turn just as his parachute deploys - AND he's aware of it - then that's a pass. He demonstrated control, he just made a poor decision to face me during opening.

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Well, like I said, it depends.

If a student starts turning as he goes in to pull, and continues it, getting faster and faster as his parachute opens, and he turns 60 degrees during the whole thing, it's a fail. He's not demonstrating heading control.

If a student stays relatively on heading, comes in to pull, is startled to see me there next to him, turns 90 to face me as he releases his PC, and then stops his turn just as his parachute deploys - AND he's aware of it - then that's a pass. He demonstrated control, he just made a poor decision to face me during opening.



Thanks for your input, Bill.
Owned by Remi #?

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Actually I didn't say anything to imply that you don't know the TLO's. What I am suggesting is that you - as a USPA coach - should question the abilities of any student that makes it to the coaching phase of the program and still can't hold a heading during deployment. I'm also suggesting that you question the Chief Instructor and the entire program if the students' ability to hold a heading during deployment isn't a requirement to graduate to coach jumps.



Hey Chuck... I feel as though you think I'm challenging you here and I want to make it clear that I'm not. I know it's difficult to express intent with printed word sometimes.

I've had students struggle a bit with heading control while trying to learn things like center point turns and then stay rock solid during deployment. I've seen students master turns and heading control during freefall and then spaz out during deployment.

By the time I've seen them, all of them have demonstrated heading control at deployment time. They wouldn't get to me if they hadn't. That most certainly does NOT mean that they won't toss me a wildcard regardless.

I've seen a guy who deployed on heading 10 jumps in a row sail off into a combination of spin and barrel roll at pull time. That was CLEARLY a repeat.

I wanted your feedback on what the grey area was. I guess I didn't express myself very well.
Owned by Remi #?

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stop it and re-establish heading control that satisfies the TLO's.



You are right I always tell my student that if your in the middle of your pull sequence and you start to rotate stop the rotation and then pull or I will make you redo the level:S


Sorry, I didn't know I needed to disclaimer my comments with a reminder of pull-time priorities. I think everyone understands that in the context of this conversation, we're talking about getting students past the problem of poor heading maintenance, not teaching them to work on it at pull time.

That's one of the beautiful things about AFF. Problems like these can be worked out with modified dive flows to improve specific skills. You probably knew that.

Nice try, though.;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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stop it and re-establish heading control that satisfies the TLO's.



You are right I always tell my student that if your in the middle of your pull sequence and you start to rotate stop the rotation and then pull or I will make you redo the level:S


Then should they keep working on stopping the rotation as they blow past their dive plans' pull altitude? Keep trying to stop it as they blow past their hard deck? keep working at it as they see YOU pull your parachute open, keep working at it until they frap in?.. Just playing devils advocate.. and curious at the same time.

As for the OP. 2 hours does not seem like that big of a deal. Cut out the long breaks, lunch, and that will cut an hour off. If the student is easy on picking up new ideas, then the instructor can move faster, not having to repeat simple information. I remember my AFF feeling like it was taking forever, even getting bored and daydreaming, because it was at a slow pace for me. I sure they had their reasons for slow pace... let the information sink in before moving on, but not everyone needs that.
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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stop it and re-establish heading control that satisfies the TLO's.



You are right I always tell my student that if your in the middle of your pull sequence and you start to rotate stop the rotation and then pull or I will make you redo the level:S


Then should they keep working on stopping the rotation as they blow past their dive plans' pull altitude? Keep trying to stop it as they blow past their hard deck? keep working at it as they see YOU pull your parachute open, keep working at it until they frap in?.. Just playing devils advocate.. and curious at the same time.

As for the OP. 2 hours does not seem like that big of a deal. Cut out the long breaks, lunch, and that will cut an hour off. If the student is easy on picking up new ideas, then the instructor can move faster, not having to repeat simple information. I remember my AFF feeling like it was taking forever, even getting bored and daydreaming, because it was at a slow pace for me. I sure they had their reasons for slow pace... let the information sink in before moving on, but not everyone needs that.


As I said in this reply

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=3406193;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;

I don't think I need to disclaimer pull priorities in this thread. After all, it's a forum for topics concerning instruction, and I'm sure instructors understand that I'm not advocating taking pull priorities out of the freefall equation. This conversation is about heading control and when it should be a proven skill, not about what a student should do if turning at deployment time.

The fact that you would even think that is evidence that the conversation may be over your head.

And sorry to say you are wrong about a 2 hour JFC. Even if you take out breaks, questions from slower learners, BS time, and everything but actually teaching of new material, the class will add up to more than 2 hours, probably substantially more.

I've taught some fairly quick FJC's, but when you add climb out and exit practice, emergency procedure practice (including hanging harness training), PLF training and practice, dive flow practice, and written test taking and review, it just won't get done in 2 hours. Hell, the stuff I just listed takes over an hour minimum to do, not including the classroom time.

Proper instruction teaches to the point of understanding, and must go well beyond the actual presentation of the material.

The new breed seems to have trouble with that concept. But hey, we have AAD's so what's the problem?:S
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Actually I didn't say anything to imply that you don't know the TLO's. What I am suggesting is that you - as a USPA coach - should question the abilities of any student that makes it to the coaching phase of the program and still can't hold a heading during deployment. I'm also suggesting that you question the Chief Instructor and the entire program if the students' ability to hold a heading during deployment isn't a requirement to graduate to coach jumps.



Hey Chuck... I feel as though you think I'm challenging you here and I want to make it clear that I'm not. I know it's difficult to express intent with printed word sometimes.

I've had students struggle a bit with heading control while trying to learn things like center point turns and then stay rock solid during deployment. I've seen students master turns and heading control during freefall and then spaz out during deployment.

By the time I've seen them, all of them have demonstrated heading control at deployment time. They wouldn't get to me if they hadn't. That most certainly does NOT mean that they won't toss me a wildcard regardless.

I've seen a guy who deployed on heading 10 jumps in a row sail off into a combination of spin and barrel roll at pull time. That was CLEARLY a repeat.

I wanted your feedback on what the grey area was. I guess I didn't express myself very well.



Thanks for clearing that up. Here's your answer:

Students will indeed throw wild cards. That's why they're called students. And you are correct, stuff like this often falls into a gray area.

As a general rule, students who have reached coach jumps should be able to hold a heading pretty darn well, and should be able to recognize and stop turns as a matter of course. If they can't, the problem may be deeper than a physical inability to perform the maneuver repeatedly. Often, students who have issues with basics like heading control are overloaded mentally, and that is a problem.

Example: a student does a good job with heading maintenance during AFF, but then has problems drifting, turning, or even spinning or losing stability on coach jumps (as in your example). This could be a sign that the student is not keeping up with the skydive mentally. During AFF, all the students focus is on himself or herself. In the coaching phase of training, the student is required to focus on flying chunked exits, proximity flying, taking grips, center-pointing, diving and docking, etc. This can be enough to overload the student, which in turn can cause poor basic flying skills to surface. They're "spazzing out" if you will. These problems often surface at stressful moments for the student, like pull time. We've all seen otherwise excellent students do stupid stuff at the bottom of the skydive.

As far as pass/fail, and a specific degree of turn, I don't think there is one. However, any student who can't consistently recognize and stop turns at will needs to master that skill before attempting RW, which is essentially what coach jumps are.

I think the criteria your looking for is consistent competence and demonstration of skill. A single issue on a single jump can be a fluke especially for folks with only a handful of jumps. An unintentional turn on a single skydive that was otherwise exemplary could be excused (depending, of course, on the students recall and analysis). The student your watching out for is the one that keeps making it through his or her levels, but with issues along the way. These are the folks that really need to work things out before moving forward. A "C" student during training can end up an "F" skydiver, and that's what we should all be looking out for.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Agreed!

The perfect student can grasp the "must knows" in a short period.
The rest is just repetition to ensure that it sinks into longer term memory.

My quickest S/L FJC was 2.5 hours. The student was unusually bright and athletic. He surprised me by repeating back to me the entire initial overview! It soon became clear that I was teaching slower than he could grasp new information.

Red Bull hype ommitted to say what the student was watching for the two days leading up to the class, what sort of hand-outs he read before the class, how much video of other AFF students he watched, how many books he read about skydiving, how much time he spent in ground rehearsals, etc. ... all of which could easily shorten AFF ground school.

I doubt if Red Bull told us the whole story.....

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