AFF Phenominon

[kj126 0]

We actually had an AFF grad, go through all the ISP requirements and finished up his 25th jump with his A licensce quiz with the proficiency card completed.
It just suprisies me how so many new students dont look forward to completeing these and acquire the skills that go with it.
As an instructor I would like to see more students being pushed(if they have to be) to complete the A license.

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[denete 2]

Go for it.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[mrbiceps 0]

No one had to push me to get that dam "A" license. I got it in 17 jumps. had my own rig in the garage and dying to go jumping on my own.

[kj126 0]

Actually very impressed, It just seems alot of our students want to get off of AFF and then and fine with solo jumping.
Not sure why this is?

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[danielcroft 2]

Had my A license stuff done and dusted a few jumps before 25 & then off and running once I got 25.

[DanG 1]

Our students don't even know what "AFF" is in terms of the old 7 levels and then start flailing. We teach them from the beginning that there are Categories A-H and you have to fill out the whole yellow card before you are done with the student program. Sure, some take a long time to get the less fun stuff (like packing and quizes) signed off, but I don't know of any who think they're done after 7 jumps. We do acknowledge the transition to self-supervision (at the end of traditional AFF), but don't make such a big deal about it that anyone stops trying to crank out the card.

- Dan G

[Carrapeta 0]

I got my "A" in 25 jumps and it was fun the entire way!! Call me weird but I LIKE packing and I really enjoyed sitting with the pilot and learning about winds and weight distribution on an aircraft etc. . .
I had some of the coaches even ask me, "do you go home and read the SIM every night or what??"
To which my reply was, "yeah". The thing about this sport to me is that, the more you know the "safer" it is.

Plus, I did my FJC with a couple of good friends adn our whole goal was to be able to jump together!! And, you can't do that with out an "A"! I wish there was a proficiency card for the "B" license. I think the card helps give me some direction in trying to aquire these essential skills.

edited to add: Plus, jumping solo gets old. You have no reference on how your moving through the air.

If your gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.

Your mom goes HandHeld

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

That was a great post, Dan. Exactly the way I run my program.

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah I found the original post confusing because that sounds like every student at our DZ (that actually wants to skydive). I reread the post 3 times trying to find the phenomenon. I jumped with a student at another DZ a few weeks ago where they still use the old AFF program... Kind of hard to believe the difference. The structure of the ISP really helps keep students on track and bulding their skills. But it comes at a price.

Such a different attitude from the students toward their progression at DZs that follow the full ISP. This one had 20+ jumps, never done a hop n' pop, never done a floater exit (I took care of that), and 3 required coach jumps planned for some time in the future. And that's at a big DZ with 3 super otters. I can't imagine one of our DZ's students getting into a position like that... actually it couldn't happen because they can't jump solo until they finish 2 hop n' pops successfully.

Dave

[livendive 8]

Quote

Our students don't even know what "AFF" is in terms of the old 7 levels and then start flailing. We teach them from the beginning that there are Categories A-H and you have to fill out the whole yellow card before you are done with the student program. Sure, some take a long time to get the less fun stuff (like packing and quizes) signed off, but I don't know of any who think they're done after 7 jumps. We do acknowledge the transition to self-supervision (at the end of traditional AFF), but don't make such a big deal about it that anyone stops trying to crank out the card.

This was my first year of trying to implement the full ISP. It's proven troublesome in some regards, but I think it'll be worth it when we get the kinks ironed out and everyone on board.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kj126 0]

I really like that you have adapted the new program so well, and I have only been an AFF instructor for the last 3yrs and was brought up on the categories and not levels.
I almost said the DZ I'm at is tough to change but the DZO has given me all the clearance to go with the new setup, the problem lies with the other instructors who have been doing this about 10 yrs.
If I train one way and they train another, the last thing you need is a confused student.
By training I mean the method not the style, it's all the same.
Any way its tough to make the transition, what I need in my court is a few more folks to become instructors so we can change the flow.
But that's a whole other issue.

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[Chubba 0]

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I wish there was a proficiency card for the "B" license.

We got something like that in Australia. To achieve your B license you have to complete the "B-rels", 10 stages/skills done by a rel work tutor.

The end result is supposed to be a skydiver that is capable of safely doing "up to 10 way flat fly's".

[girthrockwel 0]

kj126, I jump at your DZ. If you're the guy I'm thinking of we talked dirt bikes a couple of weeks ago when the wind was too high to jump. My AFF progression is going like shit. I tore my ACL Thursday before last on a dirtbike and am waiting on the doctor to tell me if I need surgery. I'm probably going to have to start over. I'm pissed at myself.

[debussyschild 0]

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Actually very impressed, It just seems alot of our students want to get off of AFF and then and fine with solo jumping.
Not sure why this is?

I'm currently doing my AFF training for my A license, and I'd say the only thing that would make me hem and haw at getting over each hurdle of the course is the sheer amount of money that goes into it. College students are poor, there's no question about that. However, I just got cleared to pack student rigs at my home DZ for about $6 a pop (no pun intended) which I can use to finance my AFF progression. They will let me jump and work off my debt by packing rigs. It's great to be eager to get off of student status, but I'm all about taking a conservative approach and making sure my own skills are rock solid before I fly on my own. I applaud those that can do it quickly, but I'd much rather take my time and be damn sure that I won't kill myself or others when I am a full-fledged skydiver.

"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[riggerrob 558]

I suspect that many students only want to become "certified skydivers" so they can brag in the bar.

Similarly, only about half of scuba divers bother to collect their "certification" card.

This puts the onus on skydiving instructors to encourage students to stick around by showing them how much fun they can have after graduation.

[Redline165 0]

I got my A with 30 jumps, didn't really matter, basically i got a day in of jumping before my check dive, no biggie. i had a blast and was working towards my A the entire time after solo status. 4th solo was a hop-n-pop, from then on i just had fun getting a coach jump every couple. I plan on continuing from there, towards my B, C and so on.

[denete 2]

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I suspect that many students only want to become "certified skydivers" so they can brag in the bar.

I've been thinking a lot about the role of the "B" license lately, especially when I hear of a good amount of skydivers who skip their "B".

In looking at the requirements for a "B", it appears to primarily be a milestone license. What I mean is that it looks more like it was set as a goal for continued achievement after earning an "A", than something which grants the holder much more beyond the "A". If this is true, then the person who signs off the "A" proficiency card should hand the skydiver a new card with his/her "B" requirements. If we're going to call for more education (check how many times that was mentioned in the USPA candidate blurbs), then we've got to set a system into motion that builds off the framework that is already in place. Otherwise we're throwing too much "new stuff" into the system which will be rejected by the stodgy up-jumpers who guide these new "A" holders.

- David (A-holder)

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[voilsb 1]

I think the B has it's place pretty well, at least if you travel to different DZs from time to time. It tells them you didn't do AFF yesterday, so your skills are more solid than an A or an A card, but they're probably not super. It says you know how to safely jump with other people, you can reasonably land where you want to, and you might not die if you land out, especially in water.

It also opens up night jumps and higher altitudes, and it might be easier to get on 4-way or bigger skydives at places you're visiting.

Brian

[MomDaBomb 0]

What's an up jumper?

[kj126 0]

Not to get this one highjacked, but yea thats the whole reason I quit racing was all the damage sustained over the years, and I pay for it every day.
But just take care of that knee and well see about getting you back in the air.
Please be sure that when your ready to come back, that you can properly PLF, so we don't cause any further damage.
Later bro,

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

An "up jumper" is a licensed skydiver.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[popsjumper 2]

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the person who signs off the "A" proficiency card should hand the skydiver a new card with his/her "B" requirements. If we're going to call for more education (check how many times that was mentioned in the USPA candidate blurbs), then we've got to set a system into motion that builds off the framework that is already in place...

Dead ON, David!
Jim Crouch, Director of Safety and Training, at USPA needs to push this heavily, IMHO.

This would be an excellent place to start on the Better Education push. You are the first one, that I can remember, that has thought of this. Please push it forward to Jim and into the election candidates threads on DZ.com.

One step further. Why not a "proficiency card" for every license!...over and above what's in the SIM requirements.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

I can't speak for everyone. But if people look at it the way I did, it's basically just a license to jump out of specialty aircraft and do beach jumps. *shrugs*

[lug 4]

I though that’s what the log book was for, to document ones personal history of skydiving that is signed attesting to the fact by the pilot, a licensed skydiver, or while one is a student/non “A” qualified a coach or instructor.

The proficiency card is just a document stating requirements have been met and signed attesting to that fact on one or two pieces of paper. Those same satisfied requirements on the proficiency cards should also be found documented and signed in the log book of the proficiency card holder.

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One step further. Why not a "proficiency card" for every license!...over and above what's in the SIM requirements.

Over and above SIM requirements? Are you thinking along the lines of changing or editing license requirements for licenses B though D?

Memento Mori

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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I though that’s what the log book was for, to document ones personal history of skydiving that is signed attesting to the fact by the pilot, a licensed skydiver, or while one is a student/non “A” qualified a coach or instructor.

The proficiency card is just a document stating requirements have been met and signed attesting to that fact on one or two pieces of paper. Those same satisfied requirements on the proficiency cards should also be found documented and signed in the log book of the proficiency card holder.

Yes, it's all in the logbook. The proficiency card just keeps the documentation for that particular license all in the same spot. My A card even had the jump number for each requirement noted so I could find it easier in my log.

Quote

One step further. Why not a "proficiency card" for every license!...over and above what's in the SIM requirements.

Over and above SIM requirements? Are you thinking along the lines of changing or editing license requirements for licenses B though D?