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NSEMN8R

Would you get out?

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And the BPA mandates that all tandems are fully hooked up on take off



Ok, so you have to, but you think we should since you have to?

Seriously, though, what about the question I asked in my last post about the TI being incapacitated?

Just because something is different, it doesn't make it any more or less safe, sometimes it can just be different.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Hey

Glad things worked out ok ... you were there... you made the decision and you are here now to talk about it ...well done

Personaly I would have got out, have had to leave early with a Tandem a few times now

Also

I hook up before take off both in the UK and the US

Guess I just prefer to be ready

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Most of the time it's best to listen to your gut. You made a choice and it worked out just fine dont seconed guess your self now! If anything had ben different you WOULD have made a different choice.
You trust your pilot and he said it's ok, your not fully hooked up you did the right thing. GOOD JOB

Bill

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i've been thinking about this one for two days now. you said you were already in the door with the silver out - picturing me in this situation, i'd have gotten out and used my reserve

as for the whole hook-up discussion: in 182's and 206's i have the laterals attached right after i take place, because i don't like fumbling around in this crowded environment. in case of an emergency exit it would take no time to get the upper hooks connected

to aggiedave
since you are so worried about getting incapacitated: you got a fucking hook knife in every tandem, so if you know the shit is going to hit the fan, yank it out and tell the fukker in front to use it if need be
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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Statistically I would be more worried about an aircraft emergency than being incapacitated...........BTW does it happen a lot in general or just to you Aggiedave?;)

I know of 1 crash where the hooked up student probably killed the TI, but inside a small A/C, unless fully restrained, isnt this always going to be a possibility??

Using the Americanism, it is easy to armchair quarterback this, but if an incident causes us to think what we do and how we do it, then it is a good thing.

Journey not destination.....

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I as taught from the very beginning not to hook my student up until at a safe exit altitude. I know every instructor thinks that the way they were taught is correct. I would put forth a couple of questions to stimulate thought on the subject.

What is the minimum altitude at which you would exit on the reserve with a tandem?

What advantage does having your student hooked up below this altitude present?

If you are in an airplane that has to make a forced landing on takeoff or shortly thereafter will you have time to unhook your student?

In that instance, how can you gaurantee that you will not be incapacitated or killed? And how is your student going to be able to evacuate a wrecked or burning airplane while trying to give your body and a 50 pound tandem rig a piggy back ride? (while possibly injured themselves) Or the other way around. Maybe your student is dead or critically injured, and you have sustained injuries that would make it difficult or impossible to unhook your student and evacuate the aircraft.

None of us can say what will happen in an aircraft emergency / crash. And none of us are impervious to injury.

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It probably just happens to me.:P

I'm not saying that one or the other method is better than the other. I know what I do and would do, but that isn't necessarily better then some other person's method.

I have appreciated the discussion, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Hey all,

Go to http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2006/AAIR/pdf/aair200600001_001.pdf It is the report of the investigation into an C206 that had engine troubles on take-off, clipped a tree and landed in a dam. Five on board, three died. Two that died was a TI with a student strapped on. I won't say much about it but read the report and make up your own mind.

Look at top pg 22 and section 3 (pg54)

Hope this helps.

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Ok I vote for stupid question dumbass.

You are second guessing yourself based on the belief that the jump would have gone fine. you don't know that. You also now know how catastrophic the engine failure was. At the time you didnt.
How many times has a student done somthing on exit that took a couple tumbles to sort out.

I have never jumped without lowers but ii brings in a whole new set of possibilitys.

Dont talk yourself into thinking you made the wrong descision so that if it were to happen again you automatically jump without thinking about it.

Bottom line is that everyone lived. so the descision you made was "A" right one. Perhaps you would have been fine if you jumped. perhaps not. It doesnt matter anymore.

I love ya like a brother and would have hated to lose you that day. (I will never admit that in person even after you ply me with yeagerbombs)
_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

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to aggiedave
since you are so worried about getting incapacitated: you got a fucking hook knife in every tandem, so if you know the shit is going to hit the fan, yank it out and tell the fukker in front to use it if need be



Have you ever tried running a hook knife through type 7 or 8? Pick any skydiving hook knife that will fit in the pocket on a harness and give it a shot.

I think you'll be surprised.

On that note, TI's if you're jumping with a "Jack Knife" plastic 2 replaceable blade knife, do your self a favor, and throw it away. Get a single blade aluminum, or single blade ONE piece molded knife. The "Jack Knife" is really only good for cutting your own throat, and you have to waste too much time pulling the blades out to do so.


I like the Square One line of knives, but there are others available.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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No CofG issues with and tandem with their back to the rear bulkhead you say. I must assume your are using tiny TI's. A simple start is to look at the placard on the bagage door. On my C-182 It states no more than 120 pounds int htis compartment. I can't believe the 172 would carry more. In fact I know that the 172 would be over gross with 2 tandems and a pilot unless they were all very small.

I agree you can hook up for takeoff but in my eyes it is terribly uncomfotable and definitely not needed. You wont be of any benifit being hooked up to get out for quite some time. All jumpers have restraint systems and should sit so that they are able to use them for taxi take off and landing (if nneeded). Also the way most STC's for restraints are in the US you couldn't legaly sit as you presctribed for the 182.

Not saying your wrong but giving food for thought as to why I won't.

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I don't understand why tandem students aren't fully hooked up (not necessarily fully tightened side laterals) on take off?

I'd rather have them properly seatbelted and prepared for a forced landing below 1500 feet than strapped to me. It takes very little time to hook up for an emergency exit. I jump mostly twin otters, and they sit next to me on takeoff with their own seatbelt. That's the safest thing for that phase of flight.

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Our 1977 C172N weighs 1476.3 lbs empty. Max gross weight is 2300 lbs. That gives you 823.7 lbs usefull load. With a 150 lb. pilot, 2 150 lb. TI's and 2 150 lb. students, (plus 100 lbs of tandem rigs) that puts you at 2326.3 lbs. In other words 26.3 pounds over gross (with only unusable fuel on board). I didn't even bother figuring out where the CG would be. (Max 120 lbs. in the baggage compartment).

Our airplane is not a jump plane so you can add some useful load by removing the copi and rear seats and maybe some nonessential avionics, but that gives you a ballpark idea.

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do a search for the accident at Willowbank Australia where the students were attached to their Instructors. After the plane went in the dam the students would have no idea how to release themselves from the instructor essentially signing a death warrant for them.

The same applies in any accident in an aircraft. If the the instructor were unconcious or dead after an accident the student is then stuck in the aircraft. The student should have their own restraint until a height where you would exit with them and then attach student and release restraint.

my 2 cents
I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

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As other posters have stated.. you obviously made at least one of the right decisions.. as it sounds as if there were multiple "right" answers. Get out/Stay in... eh... me? well.. I jump at Lodi and Davis California.. if you've been to Lodi.. you'll understand that as it is Im already looking forward to getting to at least hop n pop altitude. So.. if a loud bang happens and a pilot tells me to get out... Im gone.. a little walk back to an airfield beats becoming tarmack pizza or an airframe pasta toss.. Again.. I was not there.. can not say for YOU what was the RIGHT answer at THAT moment in time. But I am thankfull that you are still around to experience the blue skies! Continued success and blessings!
If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

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In a Cessna 172 ... if the first TI sits with his back against the instrument panel and the second TI sits with his back against the pilot seat ... and you discourage students from lolling about in the baggage compartment, a single-engined Cessna will balance properly.

As for climb rate?
Ridiculously slow with a stock 150 horsepower engine. If you have Hawk XP or Rheims Rocket or any of the more-powerful (180 - 200) after-market engines, it will climb fine.

As for being within legal gross weight ....? Maybe if the STC on your wing tip extensions permits???

Just remember that you can overload a new airplane - and live - but only fools over-load tired old jump airplanes.

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"I have never jumped without lowers but it brings in a whole new set of possibilities."

.......................................................................

Latest word from Strong Enterprises is that - during a rushed emergency exit - the MINIMUM number of hooks is TWO: one shoulder hook and one hip hook, diagonally opposite.
If you have any extra time - the more hooks the better.

On the other end of the scale, a couple of confused TIs have forgotten to attach shoulder hooks. They kept their students, but lost their ratings.

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I don't think you have ever jumped out of a 182. In that aircraft, it is literally impossible to keep the aircraft in CG and take off hooked up to a student.



....................................................................

I disagree.
I have done thousands of tandems from Cessna 172, 182, 205, 206, 207, 208 and 210 and we always managed to keep the airplane balanced, even with students attached.

However, the only time I attach students before take-off is if the door is open/missing or I get jammed in the front of an old, narrow-body 182. That slot has so little elbow room that I am forced to connect the left lateral strap before closing the door.

Aggie Dave, don't even think about sitting in the front of an old, narrow-body 172 or 180 or 182 or 185, because you are too big.

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Aggie Dave, don't even think about sitting in the front of an old, narrow-body 172 or 180 or 182 or 185, because you are too big.



I sit up front in narrow body 182s all the time. CG is important to me (especially after that engine out off field 182 landing I was in 5-6 years ago) AND its better for me for hook up than in the "JM" position. I get on my knees for hook up and have the student sit on my lap. It works like a champ, as long as I'm diligent about keeping my drogue out of the flap handle.

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I have done thousands of tandems...we always managed to keep the airplane balanced, even with students attached.



I would simply hate being in another off field engine out scenario and have my student stuck to me. Sure, I can show the student how to disconnect the connectors; however, my training in high stress scenarios outside of skydiving shows that 99% of the people wouldn't be able to react correctly.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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