Would you get out?

[NSEMN8R 0]

So we were at about 4K in a 182. 2 fun jumpers in front, me behind the pilot and the tandem student all the way in back facing me. There's a loud bang, smoke coming in through the dash board, the pilot opens the door and yells get out. The 2 way got out and I got the student turned around and slide up into the door. I had the dudes feet out with just the uppers attached and the silver out of the pocket as we were passing through 3000 ft. I look back at the pilot as we're about to bail and he says "I think we got it". I looked down and was sure we would be landing off if we went. This is a very experienced pilot that has been flying me up and down for at least the past decade. I decided to stay with the plane. I shut the door and buckled us up. The pilot landed the plane without a problem (You're the man, Dennis!). The fun jumpers landed way off, but safely so it all ended fine (except for the big hole in the motor).

As I sit here a couple weeks later, I'm wondering if it was the right decision to stay with the plane. He shut off the engine, but the prop was still spinning and the plane was shaking and vibrating a bit. I can't help but think that if the bad situation got worse at say 1000 ft, the decision to stay could have killed all 3 of us. If the motor shook itself off the mounts or something at a grand, the pilot may have been able to get out but not with me and a student in the way and I'm not totally sure a tandem reserve would open that low.

I guess it was the right move since no one got hurt, but I'm wondering what others think... What would you do?

[AggieDave 6]

No one on the internet can tell you that you did the wrong thing. We weren't there, you were. We don't know the terrain, we don't know how the student was acting and we don't know your pilot. You came away clean, so good job!

For me, I've been in an engine out off field 182 "landing" (aka a crash). I never want to do another one ever again. Never, ever, if at all possible (with out quitting skydiving, of course). At least you had the altitude to get everyone out, though. Too many times people think that in a 182 that at 1000ft everyone could get out of the plane. Nope, that just isn't going to happen safely. The decent rate is too high, while the pilot is trying to deal with an emergency dirty low to the ground and everyone is moving around like idiots in the plane. So the last person might get out around 300ft as the pilot is still trying to fly his/her ass off so he/she can live!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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I had the dudes feet out with just the uppers attached and the silver out of the pocket as we were passing through 3000 ft. I look back at the pilot as we're about to bail...

What does the tandem training say is the minimum safe exit altitude for a tandem reserve deployment?

[rwieder 0]

That's an easy one. If the PIC says get out, i'm bailing. I'm certainly not going to stay with the jump craft after he has alredy said get out hoping things are going to get better with the aircraft.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[peregrinerose 0]

As a fun jumper, sure, I'd have gotten out, but tandems are a whole other story. Isn't 3000 feet well below what a tandem is supposed to have something already out canopy wise? If that's the case, riding down is the right thing to do. Clearly, you lived, so you made the right choice

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[councilman24 36]

Given all that has been said about you were there, you lived, you did good.... and I agree....

If you felt comfortable getting out that would have lighteded the plane loading and given the pilot a little more envelope. I'm not a pilot so I don't know if 350-450lbs is enough to make a differece but I would expect it to be. Considering that our pilots didn't much like landing with a full load with a working engine on our minimum size runways.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[flydog 0]

Fremonts runways are huge and Dennis is a great pilot. If he says I think I have it then I would stay. He wouldn't steer you wrong. If he wasn't sure he could get back safe with Tony on board he would have told him to hurry up and get out. Tony was low and only half hooked up. If he didn't have to go he did the right thing why push it.

[bclark 0]

I think that you did the right thing. I think you have to weigh the risks of a partially hooked up bailout at minimal altitude vs. a power off landing in a Cessna with a capable pilot who you trust. With a little altitude to work things out, and with a cool headed pilot in the left seat, a power off landing should not be that big of an issue.

[councilman24 36]

Didn't say he was wrong. Just pointed out a reason to get out that hadn't been mentioned.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skydog 2]

I don't understand why tandem students aren't fully hooked up (not necessarily fully tightened side laterals) on take off? Surely an aircraft emergency isn't the time to hook up?

This is one area where the British system may be safer than the US???

Journey not destination.....

[AggieDave 6]

I don't think you have ever jumped out of a 182. In that aircraft, it is literally impossible to keep the aircraft in CG and take off hooked up to a student.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydog 2]

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I don't think you have ever jumped out of a 182. In that aircraft, it is literally impossible to keep the aircraft in CG and take off hooked up to a student.

And that's where you assume too much. Have done about 600 from a 182 and about 100 from a 172 (even smaller) and always been fully hooked up, and no CofG issues, go figure!

So instead of playing the "you have never" game, open your mind to consider anything that looks at safety..............

Journey not destination.....

[AggieDave 6]

Ok. Have you completed any tandem jumps out of a 182?

How would you suggest that a tandem with video and another jumper, or as in this case, two fun jumpers and a tandem pair sit in the aircraft to allow for proper CG, proper exit order and to allow the tandem pair to be attached during take off and the climb to altitude?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydog 2]

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Ok. Have you completed any tandem jumps out of a 182?

How would you suggest that a tandem with video and another jumper, or as in this case, two fun jumpers and a tandem pair sit in the aircraft to allow for proper CG, proper exit order and to allow the tandem pair to be attached during take off and the climb to altitude?

Those figures were for tandems......stop trying to be pedantic!!

The procedure used is simple......TI with back to pilot, student fully hooked up sat in between TI's legs. Camera next to pilot, back to the control stick. (assuming 3 on load). If 4 then the someone occupies the space rearward of the door.

Isn't an issue to rotate the tandem pair (unless the TI is very fat) to a kneeling position and do the final tighten of the side laterals.

In the 172 (in NZ) with 2 pairs of tandem, one TI was sat back to rear firewall and the other sat facing the control panel next to the pilot (very tight) but again both hooked up.

No CofG issues............

However, the point is simple, why not hook up prior to take off? I am open to any valid safety suggestions making this a bad idea!!!

Journey not destination.....

[TFFTM 1]

Maybe hampering exit during on ground emergencies, say during run-up... other than, that I got nothing.

(Not a TI)

BSBD
Home of the Alabama Gang

[chuckakers 370]

I haven't been a TI in years, but I think I would've gotten out. At 3K with the uppers only attached I might use the reserve rather than the main. Here's why I would have bailed:

First and easiest, you said there was smoke coming through the dashboard. Fire equals get out at any safe exit altitude in my book. Even if it stopped, as might happen if the problem was isolated to a small component, there's a chance that it could re-ignite before landing. I wouldn't want to be in that plane if I had the altitude to get out.

Second, you mention the plane was shaking and vibrating. That can't be a good sign, and - depending of course on what the problem was - it could have gotten worse over the time it took to get to the ground. Not a situation I would want to be in if I had the altitude to get out.

Third, had the problem caused an engine failure or power problem on the way to the airport, you may well have landed off the airport IN the plane. I'll take an off-DZ landing under a canopy vs being in the plane any day. We've all seen the results.

With that said, you brought your passenger home safely. Good move.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[bclark 0]

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I don't understand why tandem students aren't fully hooked up (not necessarily fully tightened side laterals) on take off?

I know this is opening up a whole new line of conversation but here we go...

Because there is a minimum altitude below which you are not getting out of the airplane. And if you land in the airplane and are incapacitated during the landing / crash, your student is now trapped in the aircraft attached to your worthless carcass.

[AggieDave 6]

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Those figures were for tandems......stop trying to be pedantic!!

The procedure used is simple......TI with back to pilot, student fully hooked up sat in between TI's legs. Camera next to pilot, back to the control stick. (assuming 3 on load). If 4 then the someone occupies the space rearward of the door.

Ok, now what if an emergency happens below exit altitude and the TI is incapacitated. What is the student supposed to do?

I only ask since I've been in a fully loaded 182 when the motor quit at 200-ish ft and the pilot put the plane down in a field.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NSEMN8R 0]

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I think you have to weigh the risks of a partially hooked up bailout at minimal altitude vs. a power off landing in a Cessna with a capable pilot who you trust.

This is pretty much what was going through my mind when I was in the door. I trust this pilot more than any other I've flown with. I've landed with him before without power and he said he had it this time. I told him as I shut the door that if it were anyone else behind the wheel I'd be gone. I chose to stay with the plane rather than landing a tandem reserve off airport from 3000 ft.

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First and easiest, you said there was smoke coming through the dashboard. Fire equals get out at any safe exit altitude in my book. Even if it stopped, as might happen if the problem was isolated to a small component, there's a chance that it could re-ignite before landing. I wouldn't want to be in that plane if I had the altitude to get out.

Second, you mention the plane was shaking and vibrating. That can't be a good sign, and - depending of course on what the problem was - it could have gotten worse over the time it took to get to the ground. Not a situation I would want to be in if I had the altitude to get out.

These are exactly the kinds of things that I'm realizing in hindsight. I can also think of a few other mistakes I made on this load that I won't bring up here. But , I will say that this was a huge eye opener and a great learning experience for me.

I'm glad it all played out the way it did on this one, but if I ever find myself faced with the opportunity to make a decision like this again, I think I will be getting out.

[kj126 0]

My DZO always says the same thing when something like that happens- you will have several different people tell you, you should have done something differently, but your here talking about it so it was the right choice, when things change- re-evaluate.

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[pchapman 261]

One of the factors in the 'stay or go' decision will be the surrounding terrain. If you are confident that the pilot will make it back to a larger airport (like in this case), that's different than being way out over a lot of muddy fields. Even with seatbelts, I wouldn't relish getting thrown around when a 182 catches in soft ground and flips. The pilot could also do without other people bouncing around his cabin.

It's hard to have perfect information in these situations. The tandem instructor won't typically be watching the terrain outside prior to the engine problem, and won't have the time to while trying to hook up the student. The pilot may not have time to fully explain the situation. It'll come down to making a decision based on the limited info one has about the altitude, terrain, state of the airplane, your belief in the pilot's skills, and what the pilot suggests.

[mark 102]

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I haven't been a TI in years, but I think I would've gotten out. At 3K with the uppers only attached I might use the reserve rather than the main. Here's why I would have bailed:

First and easiest, you said there was smoke coming through the dashboard. Fire equals get out at any safe exit altitude in my book. Even if it stopped, as might happen if the problem was isolated to a small component, there's a chance that it could re-ignite before landing. I wouldn't want to be in that plane if I had the altitude to get out.

Second, you mention the plane was shaking and vibrating. That can't be a good sign, and - depending of course on what the problem was - it could have gotten worse over the time it took to get to the ground. Not a situation I would want to be in if I had the altitude to get out.

Third, had the problem caused an engine failure or power problem on the way to the airport, you may well have landed off the airport IN the plane. I'll take an off-DZ landing under a canopy vs being in the plane any day. We've all seen the results.

With that said, you brought your passenger home safely. Good move.

1998, Grain Valley, Missouri.

Mark

[skydive4u2 0]

Would not two TIs, 2 tandem students, two tandem rigs, and a pilot be too much weight for a 172 ?

Let's have some FUN !!!

[NSEMN8R 0]

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However, the point is simple, why not hook up prior to take off? I am open to any valid safety suggestions making this a bad idea!!!

Up to now, I've been leaving them seat belted in until 2000 ft. At 2k I usually tell them they can take off the seatbelt and get up on their knees if they're in back and they want to look out the window. Then at 8 I have them sit in front of me so we can hook up.

I'm not sure hooking up prior to take off is a good idea because of the reasons mentioned above, but a good compromise might be to hook them up as soon as they take off their seatbelt at 2K. That might really suck when you get the big ones though.. having a 250 pounder leaning back on you for 8000 feet doesn't sound like fun. I might start doing that with the hotties though... for safety sake.

[skydog 2]

I understand the take-off emergencies. However, UK rules also dictate that restraints are used on take off. And the BPA mandates that all tandems are fully hooked up on take off. So in the UK there is no choice but I have no real issue with it.

As for overloading a 172. All weights and balances etc were checked and we weren't on the MAUW.

Journey not destination.....