Student logbook with pre-printed info

[peek 20]

The other thread about instructors not writing enough useful information in student logbooks prompted me to post this.

A while back, a certain DZ was convinced by a certain tandem (carney) that they were taking too long to fill out the tandem logbooks and that they were wasting time, "they get a certificate anyway", etc.

Bullshit! MY students get a logbook.

So I started making my own logbooks for tandem students, and to save time I pre-filled a lot of the info, and made check boxes for much of the other stuff. The attached image is the jump entry (only). I made it out of stiff 8.5 by 11 stock and put info on the front and back, etc. It looks pretty good.

After they saw this logbook the DZ caught on, and realized that it would not take that long to fill out a logbook of this design. (The "tandem facilitator" person could also pre-fill some of the things so the instructor would not need to do it.)

Fast forward a few years....

With an increased number of first jump AFF students it was realized that a similar logbook could be created to save time, yet be fairly complete as far as what an instructor should be writing in a logbook, at least for the first few jumps.

(I don't have a copy of the AFF logbook they came up with, it is a work in progress now.)

The main difference is that instead of the instructor writing a chronological narrative like, "good climbout, good exit count, good arch on exit, circle of awareness, 3 good practice handle touches, etc.", the items that they perform can be checkmarked, plus...

things like the hand signals have 2 checkmark boxes, one that indicates that the signal was given, and another for if the student responded.

The above items can save a lot of writing and a lot of time. There of course is space for any comments desired.

The main disadvantage with it is that sometimes it would be helpful for the next instructor to know in exactly what order the student did these things.


Any comments or suggestions are welcome, because who knows, someone may start publishing and selling logbooks of this style if there is enough instructor input on how such a logbook would look and work.

[matthewcline 0]

I would be cool with the top data and maybe the "Cat A/B etc" goals being pre-printed.

I think it is a bit impersonnal if the whole entry is just checking blocks.

Maybe it can be condensed and space left for hand writte ncommenst to aide in the next jump the Studenst will make.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[peek 20]

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I think it is a bit impersonnal if the whole entry is just checking blocks.

Agreed, and that is why I would love hearing from many instructors about what is the best balance of checkmarks to narrative.

[Baksteen 84]

The PM I sent the OP (at his request)

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I'm not an instructor so i'm hesitant to post in your thread, but under landing there should be a separate checkbox for PLF - and top of the list at that.
IMO (and with 200 jumps take it for what it's worth) a PLF is a "better landing" than the by upjumpers so over-emphasised standup.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[riggerrob 558]

How about printing the targeted learning objectives and dive flow in half-tone?

If the student passes, the instructor could just check them off.

If not, the instructor could write what really happened in the same space.

[councilman24 36]

We always taought are 1st jump students to PLF. Standups would get cheers, 'fall overs' moans, but I always corrected the newbies watching. The ones doing the PLF were doing it right.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[klingeme 0]

I think the AFF instructor should take 15 minutes with the student for an ACTUAL debreif, in which the logbook should be filled out. This might slow down the AFF Factory, but the student is paying for a propper debreif as part of their jump ticket.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[AggieDave 6]

We have something like that for tandem Cat A/B jumps, but it has a large space under the check boxes for the instructor to write more. For AFF then a regular log book is used.

The pre-printed pages are on card stock and are sized to staple right in place on that blank page in the front of a standard log book.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tkhayes 123]

we did a similar one. prints on a ordinary piece of paper, fold then fold, and you have a little booklet, 5 jumps, and room for all your propaganda.

Been doing it for more than 15 years now.
TK

[AndyMan 7]

Pre-printing is one thing. CSC does something similar to the one you posted only its profesionaly printed and bound. Pre-printed custom logbooks are great for a bunch of reasons, including DZ branding, abd encourage students to come back.

Gary is suggesting not only pre-printing, but pre-filling out log books. Adding convenient checkboxes that a rushed instructor can hastilly check off before ditching the student and running off to do his next tandem. To me, that's the epitome of laziness. Filling out a logbook the long and boring way is an important part of the student debrief. It allows for a few moments of actual teaching, never mind corrective training. Reducing it to a few checkboxes cheapens it to be nearly worthless.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[azdiver 0]

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I think the AFF instructor should take 15 minutes with the student for an ACTUAL debreif, in which the logbook should be filled out. This might slow down the AFF Factory, but the student is paying for a propper debreif as part of their jump ticket.

Mark Klingelhoefer

doesnt this always happen ,all my aff and coach jumps had a sit down debrief and a creeper session for any thing i was doing improper or is sda just the exception

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[peek 20]

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...suggesting not only pre-printing, but pre-filling out log books.

Well, there are parts that can be pre-filled or checked without sacrificing the integrity of the debrief, right?

Things like aircraft type, altitude, equipment (which really should include the main, reserve, rig, and type of cutaway/reserve handles, i.e., 2 handle vs. SOS vs. "universal").

Other things like the student's performance of course cannot be pre-filled. It can be abbreviated though.

For example, what is a "COA" or a "PHT"? A month after the student's first jump, would they remember those? A checkbox with "checked altimeter/checked with instructors" or "practice handle touch" might be more descriptive, but in the narrative format, most instructors just write "COA" or "PHT".

So there are some advantages and disadvantages.

So what is better? Having a precise chronological narrative, or something that a student can understand in a month? I can't proclaim to know.

Nice discussion everyone, a lot of good ideas here.

[azureriders 0]

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Things like aircraft type, altitude, equipment (which really should include the main, reserve, rig, and type of cutaway/reserve handles, i.e., 2 handle vs. SOS vs. "universal").

Great Idea and would/could add detail that most Instructors may/will leave out.

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For example, what is a "COA" or a "PHT"? A month after the student's first jump, would they remember those? A checkbox with "checked altimeter/checked with instructors" or "practice handle touch" might be more descriptive, but in the narrative format, most instructors just write "COA" or "PHT".

A seperate Issue in my opinion. Instructors should not use short hand that can not be read or rmembered a month later. I will use COA, we go over it and the hand signal for it over and over and do not see a student forgetting this. I would never use PHT or other term that I do not continously repeat in the same exact phrase over and over.


My conclusion of My opinion:
If your check box adds detail to the log book that may not otherwise have made it in, Good.

If your check box fixes an issue that should be fixed by having your instructors use better language, Not So Good.

If your check box makes your instrcutor's job quicker and could even possibly lead to less time and effort going into the log book, Very Bad.


In the latter jumps, I really like having them fill out their own log book, checked in detail by me of course. I don't think this is an issue with your plan, if I understand you correctly your pre filled jump description would only (possibly) be used for the first couple or three jumps.

[azureriders 0]

As I posted I had another thought that may be good and on line with what you are trying to do.

What about a small glossary of terms that your instructors may use. (COA, PHT, etc)? Then I would for sure not have a problem with using them in the log book.

Maybe even a small section in the preface about emergency procedure (EP's in the glossary) key words (look right, reach right..........) and equipment type (BOC/RC; SOS/DAS; etc) that is used and taught at your school.

This would only add a page or two to even a very small log book. Just a thought.

[peek 20]

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What about a small glossary of terms that your instructors may use. (COA, PHT, etc)?... Maybe even a small section in the preface about emergency procedure (EP's in the glossary) key words (look right, reach right..........) and equipment type (BOC/RC; SOS/DAS; etc) that is used and taught at your school.

Yes, all very good ideas. What that becomes is what Para Publishing has sold for many years. (I think Jan Meyer did much of the work on that logbook.)

Actually, what I was suggesting was something simpler, mainly, utilizing checkboxes to reduce the writing.

And yes this logbook was mainly for the first AFF jump.

[Pubwoof 0]

For the most part, I like these logbooks we've been using where Peek jumps. They are set up to be used for the first couple of jumps, at which time the student would be encouraged to buy a more traditional logbook. It is also worth noting that the space in which free form comments go is quite large, leaving instructors with plenty of freedom to include as many narrative comments as they wish.

I think of this style of logbook more as being "pre-formatted" than "pre-filled" as it mostly, to me, serves as a handy debrief checklist. Seeing all of the standard POs/skills listed on the card itself can help remind an instructor of anything they might have forgotten if otherwise staring at a blank page instead. It also standardizes some of the basic information the next instructor should be using to plan that student's next jump. We've only been using them for a couple months now (if that long), but my impression is that they provide a higher-resolution picture of the jump it purports to describe since fewer details get overlooked.

Since I don't have a natural ability to speak while writing, the fill-the-boxes part of the card helps the debrief go more smoothly since the student spends less time watching me scribble. While it's never cool to short change a student on a debrief, I don't see anything wrong with it taking less time to complete one if it is the result of a more efficient flow of information. Less meandering and "dead air" in a debrief makes it more effective too, in my humble opinion. A bad instructor can short change a student just as easily with a blank logbook page as they can using this format.

There are some aspects to these cards for which I feel less enthusiasm. One would be the cookie-cutter look of it. Even using the "other comments" section and/or drawing smiley faces doesn't make it look any less so. It's hard to tell how much of this is perceived by the student, but it's hard not to think of this as a bad impression to give however mild it may be.

Also, when you're debriefing a student with multiple areas of concern, the traditional blank page makes it much easier to pare down the more minor gripes and focus on the most important stuff. I don't like the idea of a student feeling worse about a jump than they should because their formatted page contains multiple unchecked boxes. Maybe I could try drawing a line through any uncheckable items on which the student shouldn't be dwelling so much. Or maybe the card should include an "N/A" box next to the ones for yes and no to get back some of that flexibility.

The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big.