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Deisel

Are Coaches the Weakest Link?

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and the pissing match begins ;)

nah I'm done here, Kallend has no rationale support for his position other than arrogance. "He who can not be taught" by those he deems as lesser individuals:ph34r:
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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If students graduate without reading the SIM then the fault lies with those doing the training.



No John, the fault lies with those who have ignored the opportunity to learn how to train skydivers because they think training math students or physics students makes them good coaches. The fault lies with those who think they can train skydivers because they know they can train academic research assistants.



Are you really claiming the skydivers popsjumper referred to were all trained by research professors?

Do you realize just how silly your comment was, in a lame attempt to score points off me?
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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If students graduate without reading the SIM then the fault lies with those doing the training.

:ph34r:Bullshit, if a student graduates without adequate TRAINING and instruction, the fault lies with those doing the training.
Whether or not the student reads the S.I.M. is irrelevant



***When you have to resort to an ad hominem attack it shows you have no actual point to make.
I made my point in my previous post which you seemed to miss, the one where i said your posts were arrogant and elitist.
it ended with
Never be afraid to be open to the possibility you may learn something from someone with less credentials than yourself


And that has what, exactly, to do with whether or not some three hours of instruction in teaching pedagogy is adequate?

Do you really believe a cop or a truck driver knows more about educational techniques after a three hour course from a non-expert in the field of education than someone who is a professional educator? Because that is the gist of your posts in this thread.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Clearly he never suggested that. He said that even a professional educator MIGHT learn something from a 3 hour course taught by a skydiving instructor/course director.

But I think that's beside the point. I don't care if they learn anything or not. I think it would be ridiculous to try to make exceptions for everybody that might already know something. You survived the 3 hour course on the basics. The rest of the league of superhuman educational professionals will too.

I actually would prefer if they skipped that entire part of the coach course. I had to show up to the course with the written exam complete. So after passing the test, I had to take an entire course in how to teach. That's backwards. It was really boring and pointless. That part of the course should have been focused on how to teach the particular skills that coaches need to teach. I really learned that stuff after failing ground evals... Learned more in the debriefs than in the course, I think.

Dave

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Clearly he never suggested that. He said that even a professional educator MIGHT learn something from a 3 hour course taught by a skydiving instructor/course director.

Dave



That is beside the point. The point is the outcome* achieved at the end of the process when the coach/instructor is let loose on students. The weakest link IS the topic of this thread, and I can't see the weakest link with respect to pedagogy ever being the professional educator, compared with a cop, truck driver or web designer who's just had a single 3 hour course on pedagogy. Freefall skills are another matter, of course.

* If USPA did some outcomes assessment like pretty much all schools, colleges and even the FAA do these days, this entire discussion would be resolved, of course.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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That is beside the point.



Then we agree! I said the same thing! We just have slightly different reasons why we agree that his point was beside the point.

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I can't see the weakest link with respect to pedagogy ever being the professional educator, compared with a cop, truck driver or web designer who's just had a single 3 hour course on pedagogy.



Huh? Did anyone suggest that a cop, truck driver, or web designer has more business teaching teaching than a professional pedagoger? You're a smart guy, but you miss the point on a lot of threads on this site. You should probably be traveling the country teaching the teaching section of coach courses. I'm sure we'd have better coaches. But that has nothing to do with whether or not teachers should have to sit through that portion of the coach course. Have you posted a downside to sitting through it?

Dave

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Are you really claiming the skydivers popsjumper referred to were all trained by research professors?


Hey! I'm learning something here! I think I've learned how to do the Kallend Misdirection Technique!
Thanks, Prof!

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Do you realize just how silly your comment was, in a lame attempt to score points off me?


John, John, John...you're giving the points away.


Oh, BTW, thanks for pointing out the SIM thread. Maybe we'll get some additional posters to provide input. I will ask kindly that you not post to that thread.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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To remind everyone of the OP:

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After reading the post on coach rating requirements, as well as hearing a lot of opinions on the DZ, let me ask this;
What's wrong with the coach program? Is someone with 100 jumps really experienced enough to deal with unliscensed jumpers? Given the current dynamics of the coach rating, what can someone do to be a better coach, outside of just taking the course?



We've beat to death and got distracted on the, "Is someone with 100 jumps really experienced enough to deal with unliscensed jumpers?" question.

What about the, "what can someone do to be a better coach, outside of just taking the course?" question?
Maybe here's where Kallend could possibly provide some valuable input?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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But I want that college degree so there I sit.



I understand those points. Unless I misunderstand you, they are based on an endless number of people wanting college degrees, so they do what it takes.

We do not have a huge number of people wanting USPA ratings, so my point is that we should not insult those who want their ratings and already have experience in basic instructional concepts.



I say let them sit through it, offer input and try to be helpful, and send an evaluation of the course to USPA.

The amount of time I spend teaching ONE A-license recipient is greater than the time a coach course candidate spends learning how to teach. If they can't tolerate that amount of tedium, their passing of the course will be irrelevant around me, because I won't let someone watching the clock that closely work with any of my students. Passing a coach course doesn't guarantee one a job, and an unwillingness to meet the incredibly simple requirements of such a course identifies the people I wouldn't want working for me.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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That is beside the point.



Then we agree! I said the same thing! We just have slightly different reasons why we agree that his point was beside the point.

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I can't see the weakest link with respect to pedagogy ever being the professional educator, compared with a cop, truck driver or web designer who's just had a single 3 hour course on pedagogy.



Huh? Did anyone suggest that a cop, truck driver, or web designer has more business teaching teaching than a professional pedagoger?



That was the clear implication of aggiedave's rather insulting post.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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"what can someone do to be a better coach, outside of just taking the course?"

Well, here's something that I believe helped me...
Put yourself in the student's position.

He doesn't know much. He wants to learn. He doesn't want to appear stupid so he may not ask, or even know to ask, certain types of questions.

Help him get over that by presenting yourself as someone who is very interested in him learning what he wants to know. Let him know you are open to any and all sorts of questions...and then treat the question as valid and honorable regardless of anything else.

-Remember what it was like when YOU were that student.
-Explain in detail.
-Never assume he already knows something relevant to the subject being taught.
-Quiz and teach. Teach and quiz.
-Ask for his thoughts on the subject.
-Make learning as fun as possible.
-Never sacrifice or shortcut safety.
-Be positive, never negative.
-Point out the good things he does.
-Never badmouth the things he doesn't do well. I use the "and here's some things we can work on for the next jump" technique.

Hope that helps some.

Andy
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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What you've said is good and I would also like to add that the biggest thing to help me is to get coaching from very competent coaches. How they teach what they teach has taught me a lot (if that makes sense).

The biggest example for me is how Scott Miller taught canopy control. He was taking very complex concepts and tasks and breaking them down in such a manner that joe-average jumper could understand them.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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OK THAT'S ALL GREAT STUFF BUT OP WAS ARE THEY THE WEAKEST LINK... I THINK USPA SHOULD UP THE REQUIREMENTS. I DON'T THINK COACHES ARE A WEAK LINK. THEY SERVE THEIR PURPOSE OF TRANSITIONING STUDENTS THAT ARE CLEAR FOR SOLO TO JUMPING WITH OTHERS GIVING THEM THE FUNDAMENTALS TO DO SO. IF YOU PASS THE COACH COURSE YOU HAVE THE SKILLS TO DO THIS... IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS THEN IT WOULD FALL ON THE CD SHOULDERS. SO IF ANYTHING THE SYSTEM IS THE WEAKEST LINK NOT THE COACH
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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Ease up on the Red Bull there aye?;)

I agree that CD's need to be the ones who are ultimatley ensuring that regardles of the standard it is being kept.

maTT



LOL the cap lock was on for my work not done on purpose B|
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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I understand that DZOs will have to make a finance based decision here, but I offer the following; why doesn't anyone (or does someone?) pair up students/instructors/coaches in FJC? Doesn't it make sense that there would be a hand-off from instructor to a coach who has some SA on how the student has progressed? The first time I ever heard of a coach was when I was ready to do a coach jump. Then I never made a second jump with any of them. It was simply whoever was available at the time.



Yes yes yes! Not knowing who I can ask for a coach jump (e.g. who is best able to teach the skills I am looking for at the time), and who is even interested in doing a coach jump(s) with someone who may need a bit of extra help, has kept me away from the DZ more weekends than I actually showed up. Being more closely connected with a coach or two would help considerably.

Also the whole process of "okay now I've got my solo; now what?" would have gone a lot more smoothly if I had had someone specific to talk to for advice. I ended up talking to the DZOs directly, which while helpful, most of the time they were simply too busy to help very much.
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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Well like in the discussion we had the other night. Coach and AffI courses are not really courses. They are evaluations. So if that is the case then you should have the skills before you go to the course. I guess that's why they want the proficiency card and the test done before you show up.
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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Well like in the discussion we had the other night. Coach and AffI courses are not really courses. They are evaluations. So if that is the case then you should have the skills before you go to the course.



Except teaching skills (according to many here). Any skills you already have in that area are apparently redundant.


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I guess that's why they want the proficiency card and the test done before you show up.


...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Coaches are like Grad Assistants. They have shown they know the material, but still need some help on the ability to convey that knowledge in a form understandable to the student. The coach rating is there to make a more smooth transition from a regular fun jumper to an instructor.

Keep the student safe. Help further develop skills related to safety. Keep the student interested in becoming a better skydiver. Keep the fun going. Stave off boredom. Introduce the student to new exciting drill dives. Be a friend. Refer the student to others such as a rigger for gear advice. Be an information filter more so than a source. Don't be afraid to say I don't know and find someone who does.

Just my thoughts as a new coach.
Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

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