TI's and AFFis working very long hours....Your thoughts?

[humanflite 0]

So, Ive seen it first hand, and also know other people who have seen the same thing at 'various' dropzones...
Im not going to name any DZs as thats not what this post is about (or me for that matter).

But is it right that there are no 'logged hours' per day for instructors or similiar (in the uk at least) as Ive seen a Ti have to do a tandem before DZ close after a 6am till 6pm working day....and he could barely keep his eyes open before going on the plane!!

Also, Ive heard of and seen AFFis who have done very loooong days (12 hours plus) possibly with a late night before, who have done an AFF or two on the last lift...so 13 hours + of hard working day.

On at least one occasion I know the AFF went bad (nearly really bad) but luckily all ended ok.

My question...

Should working hours be regulated more tightly by the DZO?
As most of them, certainly in the current economic climate have a 'we HAVE to make money' attitude, that I think is putting safety second to making money.

What are your experiences/thoughts?

Lorry drivers have tachometers to ensure they can only drive a certain number of hours...

AFFis and TIs have only their conscience at the present time

[bodypilot1 0]

You really have only been in the sport 2yrs...... Making money IS the the DZO top priority.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[AggieDave 6]

I work a scheduled 12 hr day at my "real" job. Many times that ends up being a 14+ hr day. It happens, that's life.

As for when I'm doing tandems. If I've had my limit, I pull myself out of the rotation. Any other option is the instructors choice, no matter what DZ you're at. If an instructor is unwilling to stand up to a DZO for their health and safety, well, shame on them.

Regulation isn't needed. An instructor knowing his/her limits and sticking to them is whats needed!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[humanflite 0]

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You really have only been in the sport 2yrs...... Making money IS the the DZO top priority.

Very true. But at the cost of safety??

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Regulation isn't needed. An instructor knowing his/her limits and sticking to them is whats needed!

Your right on there Aggiedave.
but thats my point. From what Ive seen...Some instructors might feel pressured by the DZO to get the jumps in regardless..

[bodypilot1 0]

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Some instructors might feel pressured by the DZO to get the jumps in regardless..

Most are afraid that the next 500 jump wonder with a tandem rating will step into the shoe's they were just booted out of, thats why. It's a sad fact these days.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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You really have only been in the sport 2yrs...... Making money IS the the DZO top priority.

Very true. But at the cost of safety??

Well, if safety was a higher priority then making money would NOT be the top priority now, would it? Safety would be.
The truth is all DZOs do care about safety. The question is how do they balance it with economic imperatives. If they took the safest path at all times the aircraft would not leave the ground. If they went for the money with no regard for safety every time they would either have an accident rate that pushed them out of business or they would run out of staff quickly.

[TheCaptain 2]

Each instructor needs to know their limits. I have seen many instructors say they will not take a student for one reason or another and I commend those instructors for taking a stand.
Personally, I would pull myself off line if I did not think I could handle a jump. I also feel previlged to work at a DZ that understands this, when presented with what may be a challlenging student, they will pull the instructor aside and tell them it is totally their decision and the DZ will support that decision .
As far as the long day, sure after my 12 tandem I may not be quite as enthusatic as my 1st tandem but I will guarntee you I would not be there if I thought I was too tired and would be unsafe.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[skydiverton2 0]

Quote

So, Ive seen it first hand, and also know other people who have seen the same thing at 'various' dropzones...
Im not going to name any DZs as thats not what this post is about (or me for that matter).

But is it right that there are no 'logged hours' per day for instructors or similiar (in the uk at least) as Ive seen a Ti have to do a tandem before DZ close after a 6am till 6pm working day....and he could barely keep his eyes open before going on the plane!!

Also, Ive heard of and seen AFFis who have done very loooong days (12 hours plus) possibly with a late night before, who have done an AFF or two on the last lift...so 13 hours + of hard working day.

On at least one occasion I know the AFF went bad (nearly really bad) but luckily all ended ok.

My question...

Should working hours be regulated more tightly by the DZO?
As most of them, certainly in the current economic climate have a 'we HAVE to make money' attitude, that I think is putting safety second to making money.

What are your experiences/thoughts?

Lorry drivers have tachometers to ensure they can only drive a certain number of hours...

AFFis and TIs have only their conscience at the present time

That is why I sleep in the plane

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[yarak 0]

If you shoot jeager bomb between each load it helps keep you going.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[fff3 0]

Ego+Cash-Safety=Skydiving

[JohnRich 4]

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Should working hours be regulated more tightly by the DZO?

We trust the lives of students with instructors, we ought to be able to trust them to make their own decision to stand down if they don't feel capable of jumping safely.

What are you proposing? That there should be something like a six-jump limit on instructors?

If that limit applies to instructors because anything beyond that would be "unsafe", then shouldn't the same limit also apply to experienced jumpers?

Pretty soon you'll have the whole drop zone grounded by noon.

Bottom line: A DZO can ground anyone they think isn't fit for performance. Instructors can also ground themselves, and often do. Everyone has different limits on what they can handle, based upon personal fitness, how late they stayed up the night before, and so on. There is no one number for jumps or hours that would be fair to everyone. So the best thing to do is to just let everyone decide for themselves. We already entrust them with life and death decisions at 120 mph. I think we can trust them to know when to stop.

[azureriders 0]

Instructors, as well as other DZ staff, work very hard, trust me I know. However, if I were at the DZ unloading gear before daylight, jumping and working on back to back loads all day, and perhaps editing videos until the wee hours of the following morning, then and only then would that day even begin to ressemble the stress and fatigue I put my self through 3 to 5 week days of every week.

I know my limits and would, and have pulled myself from rotation. The fact still remains that my work at the DZ is not as tiring, and at times not as dangerous, as my normal work week.

My point: No, I don't need someone telling me when I have had enough, and no, the saftey of my students does not suffer from that fact.

Saftey should be the top concern of everyone at the DZ, cuddos to you for thinking of and bringing up saftey related discusions.

[VictorSuvorov 0]

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From what Ive seen...Some instructors might feel pressured by the DZO to get the jumps in regardless..

hahaha. you are funny. do me a favor- send me info on those places, i will go visit. i really want to get under that kind of pressure

[humanflite 0]

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From what Ive seen...Some instructors might feel pressured by the DZO to get the jumps in regardless..

hahaha. you are funny. do me a favor- send me info on those places, i will go visit. i really want to get under that kind of pressure

Case in point.

To the other posters/
It appears it should be a wholly self managed affair from your comments.
Thats cool....I wasnt seeking or wanting regulation but instead, your thoughts on if the current lack of regulation is good or bad.

[JohnRich 4]

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I wasnt seeking or wanting regulation but instead, your thoughts on if the current lack of regulation is good or bad.

I say it's good. If we ever get some government authority micro-managing such minor aspects of skydiving, then our sport will be in a lot of trouble.

[normiss 622]

or maybe we'll go on emergency services type rotations - say 3-5 days on with 3-5 days off.
Boy I'll bet those neurosurgeons get exhausted and stressed being pressured to save people's lives all the time.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

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Some instructors might feel pressured by the DZO to get the jumps in regardless..

Most are afraid that the next 500 jump wonder with a tandem rating will step into the shoe's they were just booted out of, thats why. It's a sad fact these days.

***Not an instructor here***
In the real world, fair hiring and firing laws can be enforced with lawsuits. If you work a given number of hours a day, your employer is required to provide you with a break. Its the law. They cannot legally fire you (or take any disciplinary action against you) for taking a break if you are working the required hours! The number of hours varies by state (I think its 6 in Virginia), although I am not sure how this applies to "outside contractors" which is how a lot of DZ staff operates. And DZOs generally know that it is a pretty slim chance that an instructor would actually sue them, which I think is good.

Of course, try reminding the DZO that he is required by law to provide a break for you and he will probably find another excuse to fire you if he really wants to.


Edit: I know this because of a family member whose boss wanted them to work a 10 hour shift without even a 15 min break. Looked up her rights, presented them to the boss and she got her 45 min lunch, per law.

[JohnDeere 0]

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Some instructors might feel pressured by the DZO to get the jumps in regardless..

Most are afraid that the next 500 jump wonder with a tandem rating will step into the shoe's they were just booted out of, thats why. It's a sad fact these days.

***Not an instructor here***
In the real world, fair hiring and firing laws can be enforced with lawsuits. If you work a given number of hours a day, your employer is required to provide you with a break. Its the law. They cannot legally fire you (or take any disciplinary action against you) for taking a break if you are working the required hours! The number of hours varies by state (I think its 6 in Virginia), although I am not sure how this applies to "outside contractors" which is how a lot of DZ staff operates. And DZOs generally know that it is a pretty slim chance that an instructor would actually sue them, which I think is good.

Of course, try reminding the DZO that he is required by law to provide a break for you and he will probably find another excuse to fire you if he really wants to.


Edit: I know this because of a family member whose boss wanted them to work a 10 hour shift without even a 15 min break. Looked up her rights, presented them to the boss and she got her 45 min lunch, per law.

Does not apply to the self employed/ contracted labor.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[bodypilot1 0]

Most instructors are so called "private contractors", so what you said about breaks would never apply. Besides, they get a sit down break on the way to altitude.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Rory81 0]

hehehe, i'm both instructor and jump pilot and i can tell you that after a long day as pilot i end up much more tired than after a long day as instructor, so i'd laugh at the instructors if they say they had a long day . Try that same day in the cockpit instead of walking around, talking to people... at least they can choose when to pee! . Anyway i would stop the operation (as pilot) if i feel i need a 30 min break, and no one at the DZ would argue that. If i'm jumping i just pull myself out of the rotation, no big deal.

Soooooooo less whinin' more jumpin'