A Question For The Pros.

[AirWhore 0]

Hey folks we had a very strange incident at our DZ yesterday and i wanted to know if anybody had ever had any experience with. We had a student on his 8th jump lose conciseness under canopy. He landed ok with a couple scrapes. I went with him on his jump just to observe, and he seemed very relaxed and comfortable in freefall. He pulled at his correct altitude and i observed him making a couple of turns under his canopy. I landed then waited in the landing area to watch him land. He looked as if he initiated a turn down wind but stopped when he was about 45 degrees to the wind Line (he was crabbing) and stayed that way all the way to the ground. When he landed i noticed that his hands were down but i thought he was just flaring. The first people who got to him said that he was awake but a little dazed. The student told us that at about 2000 feet (i tend to think he was lower than this) he could feel himself getting woozy and that he was having to fight to stay conscious. He said that he does remember flying toward the landing area but he doesn't remember landing. The first thing he remembers is laying on the ground and people running up t0 him. Our DZO has been in the business for 37 years and has never heard of anyone losing conciseness under canopy.

Now we would all like the kid to be able to jump again but frankly we are a little worried about the boy, and nobody wants to let him go up again with out knowing what caused the black out.

Has anybody ever had a student (non tandem) black out on them before????

[inextremis 0]

I have had students who cinched their harnesses ridiculously tight--to the point where the chest and leg straps were tough to loosen. Something like that aside--your student needs to see a physician before he or she gets out of an airplane again. Could be a dozen or more medical issues completely unrelated to jumping.

[voodew1 0]

Legs straps to tight can lead to this - or not 'sitting' in the harness under canopy
Same thing happens constantly at high school pictures where people stand with locked knees for a while -- slight bend in the legs allows circulation --- same with legs straps
Never had one pass out completely but I do recall a student have a permature opening at 8k during a backloop who said he almost passed out --- is was due to not 'sitting' in the harness but rather 'hanging' in the harness

talk to him about crossing his legs under canopy and getting into a more relaxed position - student rigs are bad about this as sometimes leg strap padding doesn't completely cover everything due to the one size fits all type of rig

Ask about inner thigh brusing to prove this point

Hope that helps -- he is lucky I have seen no flare landings under big parachutes still break bones --- him being knocked out and relaxed probabaly helped

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Kimsdu 0]

I have seen a student who also passed out due to his leg straps being too tight.
I have also had a student on Aff level 5 loose consciessness in freefall around 9000ft, Happened about 2yrs ago, I had done all of her previous jumps with no incident, On the jump where she passed out it seemed to me like she might be having an epileptic fit or heart attack or dying!!!! Pretty scarey stuff.... eyes rolled back and foam from the mouth, she started to spin hard i went in stopped her and pulled her out not knowing if she was dead or alive, consciess or not, i spiralled down whilst talking on the radio!!
She had regained consciessness at she says 3000ft and landed uneventfully however cannot remember the skydive and she was very lethargic and slow mentally once i got her into the classroom to talk.
I grounded her till she recieved a full medical, her doctor even called me..( He was a complete tool BTW) Very rude.
Anyway he cleared her to jump again, However i refused as it just wasnt worth the $35 to make that jump knowing she could be in danger and i had already witnessed it before.
I also urged other Instructors not to jump with her as it could be a liabilty issue should it happen again..

Moral of the story Dont get complacent as an istructor every jump is different and you always need to be ready to take action..

[tombuch 0]

Yup. We had a strange character in our AFF program who seemed to black out a few times on the airplane, and had troubles under canopy. Several instructors refused to jump with him.

Finally one day he was unresponsive in the airplane and the instructor brought him down. The pilot radioed the problem to manifest so we could be ready with medical assistance. I met the airplane (as an EMT). The instructor confirmed that the student had completely blacked out and was not responsive, but the student denied that. It was apparent that he had recovered somewhat, but his pulse was fast, eyes glazed, and skin tone was slightly ashen. As S&TA I grounded him until he brought a note from his doctor.

He returned later that day with a note from a local clinic saying he was fine. I contacted the clinic and explained the situation. The doctor said the guy had claimed he was drunk the night before and the problem was a simple hangover that had never happened before, and that he hadn't actually passed out. The doctor said he wouldn't have given the note if he knew what had actually happened. The DZO still didn't care, saying he had a doctors note and should be able to jump. Essentially I made enough of a stink about it so the guy went away for several weeks. When he returned his demeanor had changed significantly, and he didn't appear to pass out again. My sense is that he had a treated medical problem that he didn't want to talk about, and his medications had been adjusted.

It was a serious issue. I lost a great deal of respect for the DZO over the way he handled it, and his willingness to let the guy keep jumping even though he had lied to the doctor about what had occured.

One of the things I learned in researching the problem is that epilepsy can cause black outs, and that stress can trigger an attack. There are probably other medical conditions that can present with blackouts, and that can also be triggered by the stress of a student jump. Some are treatable, some may not be.

I doubt its something like the harness being too tight...that can happen with some tandem student rigs, but it's not something I'd buy into on a persons eighth jump with a solo rig checked by an instructor.

I'd suggest your student receive a full medical workup, and that he be very clear with his doctor about what happened. Your student should be as concerned about this as you are, and shouldn't want to jump again until he finds out what's wrong. If he approaches the incident differently, you should be worried. I wouldn't let him jump again until the problem is identified.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[gravitysurfer 0]

Quote

Something like that aside--your student needs to see a physician before he or she gets out of an airplane again. Could be a dozen or more medical issues completely unrelated to jumping.

I agree 100%.

I had a student pass out cold on the ground all geared up and waiting to make their 3rd S/L jump. He was young, looked in shape and in the military. We found out later that he had a known medical condition that caused blackouts and mild seizures but had stopped taking his medication days proir. He also neglected to include this information on his waiver.

<>

My hat's off to you, Tom, for raising a stink despite the DZO.

To the OP: Is your DZ located near a body of water? If so this incident might have ended much differently.

aloha.

[ficus 0]

I had an AFF L-1 student recently who had a great freefall, but was completely unresponsive under canopy. He plowed in downwind in a field on the opposite side of our runway to the normal landing area. Thankfully, he didn't even break anything. It might have been a different story if he had ended up over an obstacle or even pavement.

When he had regained his bearings, he said that he had gotten "tunnel vision". He could hear me on the radio, but he couldn't do anything about it. He then told us that he had a history of "blacking out like this" in intense situations, that of course he did not mention when asked about his medical history before making the jump.

He reached the conclusion that skydiving was not for him, sparing us the task of telling him he would not be doing any more AFF jumps at our dropzone.

Also see this post about an experienced jumper passing out under canopy.

[saly 0]

An old thread

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1096295;page=unread#unread

Seen this before could be hypoglycaemia or low blood sugar.

GEt it checked out.

---------------------------------------------
If you don't have wings you will never fly

[popsjumper 2]

Tom, I highly applaud your decision and your position with the DZO.

Question:
So, the jumper got a "clearance" from a doctor...and then has something bad happen. Does that "clearance" relieve the DZ/DZO of any liability should the issue wind up in court?

Do you know of cases like that winding up in court and the outcomes of the legal action?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Question:
So, the jumper got a "clearance" from a doctor...and then has something bad happen. Does that "clearance" relieve the DZ/DZO of any liability should the issue wind up in court?

Do you know of cases like that winding up in court and the outcomes of the legal action?

Nothing bad happened that I am aware of. I was able to chase the guy away until he got his medical situation under control, and as far as I know he didn't have any further problems.

I do not know of any court cases involving a situation like this. My sense is that the drop zone should exercise reasonable care and not let somebody jump who they believe might have a medical problem, with or without a doctors note.

In the case at my DZ the guy brought a doctors note, but because of my research we knew the doctor had been mislead. If something really bad happened, it might have been a big problem in court.

In any event, when I'm evaluating a risk decision involving another person, I ask myself three things:

1) If something terrible happened and the student was injured, could I face that person and honestly say I did everything I could to protect his safety.

2) If something terrible happened and the student was killed, could I face his mother, father, wife, children, and honestly say I did everything I could to protect his safety.

3) If something terrible happened, could I face a jury of 12 lay people and honestly say I did everything i could to protect his safety, and be sufficiently convincing that they would believe me and respect my decision.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[AirWhore 0]

Thanks everyone for your replies it has been helpful.
I'll try to reply to everyone responses and concerns here but if i miss something ask me again.

As far as the leg straps being to tight, i don't think that was the problem. I did 2 gear checks and nothing seemed to be overly tightened (but then again i wasn't wearing it). I'm gonna call him today and see how he's doing, I'll ask him if his inner thighs are bruised.

To Gravity surfer: yes there is a river at the end of the runway and he was extremely lucky he didn't hit anything. He landed about 20 yards from an obstacle in all directions.

As far as low blood sugar, He had just gotten back from the store right before he got on the load and he said he had eaten a bagel right before we left.

Thanks again everyone for the replies. We are going to tell the student that at the very minimum he will have to be checked out by a doctor before he can jump with us again.

[Andy9o8 0]

Over the years, I've give a fair amount of legal advice, etc. to DZOs & others in the industry, and this issue has come up. I agree completely that at the slightest doubt or concern about a jumper's medical condition, the jumper should be grounded until he's cleared, IN WRITING, preferably specifically for skydiving, by a doctor. (And if the doctor refuses to do that, simply because he thinks skydiving is crazy, and doesn't want to be an "enabler"? Tough shit. The jumper will just have to find himself another doctor.) (No exceptions! Not even for the respected up-jumper whose 4-way team is in the middle of a day of training jumps.)

I also applaud Tom B.'s diligence in following-up with the doctor over the phone. Now some might say that as long as the DZO / S&TA has that doctor's note, he shouldn't follow-up with the doctor, reasoning that "you can't be held liable for not heeding something you didn't know", etc. I reject that thinking. Now, I'm not saying that a follow-up call is always necessary; indeed, many times a doctor's note might be enough. But from a standpoint of DZO liability, "due diligence" is the key. You have to take each situation on a case-by-case basis. If, despite the doc's note, there remains any doubt in the S&TA's mind, he should call the doc, and keep the jumper grounded until he receives and is fully satisfied with the answers.

Suppose, in the situation Tom B. mentioned, Tom had relied solely on the doc's note, let the person jump, and then the jumper was injured or killed due to the very same medical condition. You can bet that - during the lawsuit - the plaintiff's attorney, quite properly, would have inquired: "Did the DZO or S&TA do anything at all to follow-up with the doctor, other than simply relying on the doctor's note?" That's the "due diligence" principle coming into play.

Again, the S&TA, using his best professional judgment, has to take each situation on a case-by-case basis. But the principal behind the maxim, "When in doubt, whip it out" applies to all sorts of situations, including this type.

[Kimsdu 0]

I was also frowned upon for not taking my Freefall pass out girl up on her continuation jumps by the Dzo, However being one of the more experienced Instructors at the Dz most of the other instructors agreed with me and the matter did not get too out of hand.

AS AN INSTRUCTOR YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO!!! SOME PEOPLE SHOULD JUST NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE PROGRAM AT ALL!!

My arguement was "What if she had a Mal whilst being unconsciess??? And rides in a spinner or a total!!!!! AGAIN NOT WORTH $35 for me..... To live with the fact i enabled her to get injured or explain to her family why she is dead when i KNEW THIS HAD HAPPENED TO HER BEFORE.

I have almost 3000 Aff jumps and unless i was teaching the groundschool would not ask about medical problems... Now i ask all my students, especially if they have given blood within 24hrs which can make you queasy at altitude.