johnny1488 1 #26 July 24, 2008 QuoteWhy would you make a different decision for a personal jump? Deciding not to swoop a landing for a tandem but to do so for yourself is understandable; there is a payoff for your increased risk. However an RSL is about safety and nothing but safety. There is no payoff from any decision other than safety. Because on my personal jumps, its just my life, so I choose not to use an rsl. I jump video and a highly loaded elliptical canopy. And stability should not be an issue. I feel I am safer without one (for myself.) On tandems, its my passengers life I am responsible for, not just mine. Where stability is an issue after cutaway, like on tandems and students, i believe an rsl is a must. On experienced jumpers, its a matter of preference and being comfortable with your gear. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #27 July 24, 2008 I agree with you. I've never done a tandem without a connected RSL, but don't have an RSL on my sport rig. It's just a matter of comfort for me. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #28 July 25, 2008 I am not a TI, however I am very familiar with the Vectors at our DZ and think the RSL on them to be a good thing. Being that this thread was started about disconnecting the RSL first in a horseshoe situation, in orther words In Air Rigging, a bad thing in most all our minds, I thought I would mention the Racer rig and the fact that you MUST release the RSL before cutting away the main in a two out situation. I have wittnessed the out come of not following this rule and it was not a pretty sight. Bottom line, and room for more discussion, if I were a TI and jumping a Racer, I would disconnect the cross over RSL. Vector would be left connected and I am not familiar enough with Strong (or others) to commment. Just my $0.02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadwood 0 #29 July 25, 2008 I believe there are three tandem cutaways, with RSLs, where the tandem pair entangled with the reserve system on deployment, resulting in fatalities. The witness descriptions from the cross keys incident indicate the TI pulled the reserve immediately upon cutaway, same as if he had the RSL hooked up. It appears he too tangled in the reserve system. I have had two tandem cutaways on my Strong rig. The first was with an RSL from a spinning malfunction. I saw the reserve pilot chute going by our legs and I didn’t like it. After that I stopped using the RSL. On my next tandem cutaway from another spinner, I had the student get in a good position, and then cutaway. We fell for 5 or 6 seconds until we were in a good and stable face to earth body position and then I cleanly deployed the reserve. It was much nicer. If I had a skyhook with a Collins lanyard I might think differently. Until then my procedure is, no RSL, cutaway, get stable, pull the reserve.He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #30 July 27, 2008 I make many decisions differently on my own rather than on a tandem. For instance, my personal rigs don't have aads, but I wouldn;t dream of doing a tandem without one. It comes down to I have a right to make risk assessments in my own case, but not in a student's.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattaman 0 #31 July 27, 2008 I always encrourage tandem instructors who can't pull the reserve handle on their own to have the rsl on. They are safer with it. Having an rsl always risks entanglement, but your right, for you it is safer with it on. And you know this in your gut.Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #32 July 27, 2008 Quote I always encrourage tandem instructors who can't pull the reserve handle on their own to have the rsl on. They are safer with it. Having an rsl always risks entanglement, but your right, for you it is safer with it on. And you know this in your gut. WTF???are you serious, if you cannot pull a reserve handle then you can't jump. what if you had a total? That is some of the worst advice I have ever heard, Did i hear you wrong?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattaman 0 #33 July 28, 2008 My point is that rsl's are old technology that have caused, or been implicated in 3 relatively recent tandem fatalities that probably wouldn't have happened with skyhooks or if the instructor hadn't had an rsl on and deployed the reserve cleanly. Its tough saying this without people getting openly agitated but after a couple more fatalities from this problem we'll be sure to see a push to get skyhooks on all tandems and more discussion about it. rsl's are out of date backup devices. I think we've reached a time in the sport when we need to realize that skyhooks or nothing is probably the best way to go. Some people have thought that a tandem I who goes without an rsl is selfish. I think the opposite is true, get your competency in belly flying tandem stabalization up to par, practice you ep's to a high level of competency, and rsl's start looking a little dangerous. And yes, if you can't pull the emergency handle on a tandem cutaway, get out of tandems cause your not safe. I can't imagine doing tandems and not being capable of this. If your worried about a hard cutaway, make sure to do equipment checks. Sorry if I was confusing earlier. Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #34 July 28, 2008 QuoteI make many decisions differently on my own rather than on a tandem. For instance, my personal rigs don't have aads, but I wouldn;t dream of doing a tandem without one. It comes down to I have a right to make risk assessments in my own case, but not in a student's. Bingo.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #35 July 29, 2008 Quote Had 7 tandem cutaways, we have RSL`s on our rigs, I disconnect them on every jump. Definitely not a fan. I have six tandem chops. All with RSLs. Three without skyhook and three with. I'll go with RSL / Skyhook. I even added it to my personal rig.Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #36 July 31, 2008 Quote . the reserve was out before i was belly to earth(still upright a little). Sounds like a a perfect attitude for reserve deployment, slightly head high. What's wrong with that?I've got 4-5 Tandem cutaways. All pretty much by the book, all with RSL's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #37 July 31, 2008 it was fine for a standard reserve deployment. what i would be worried about is if i was spinning, falling on my back, or something else that would cause a reserve problem. i always make sure my desicions are made high enough to give me time to straighten out a problem. it would suck to have a reserve malfunction when just a couple seconds more before reserve deployment could have given me a good reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #38 July 31, 2008 Agreed! I have watched video of dozens of reserve test drops and concluded that - by far - the best time to deploy a reserve pilot chute is one second after cutaway. That way, you are still head-high, with wind blowing up your back, to blow the reserve pilot chute chute clear of flailing arms the quickest way possible. I have fifteen plus tandem reserve rides. During most of them, the RSL pulled the reserve ripcord about the same time I got the cutaway handle to arm's length. I recently re-installed the RSL on my solo Talon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #39 July 31, 2008 QuoteAgreed! I have watched video of dozens of reserve test drops and concluded that - by far - the best time to deploy a reserve pilot chute is one second after cutaway. That way, you are still head-high, with wind blowing up your back, to blow the reserve pilot chute chute clear of flailing arms the quickest way possible. Ditto.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #40 August 1, 2008 were these test drops done with spinning canopy or a bad student that put you on your back after chop ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #41 August 2, 2008 Sorry, but most of those test drops were cutaways from well-behaving main canopies. I have never had a malfunction or mis-behaving student put me on my back. I still believe that RSLs are the best way to deploy after cutting away a malfunctioning main. Sorry if I sound old and grumpy and opinionated, but I am. I quit counting after twenty malfunctions. I survived my first malfunction in 1979. A neck injury - suffered during my second malfunction in 1981 - still hurts today. I have torn up round main canopies owned by the German and Canadian Armies. I have torn up far more first-generation tandem mains than I care to remember. My last solo cutaway was from a spinning 119 to a well-behved R-Max 118 ... the smallest canopy I have ever jumped. My last reserve ride was on a Strong 425 reserve. Al those aches and pains have taught me the RSLs are good. I always leave RSLs attached when I do tandems and recently re-installed the RSL in my Talon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chris74 0 #42 August 2, 2008 Hello, I have 2 on my rig ;-) , Atom tandem + LOR 2 ( always attached ) BS Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #43 August 2, 2008 I have six chops on tandems in 1,610 jumps: three with rsl only and three with rsl/skyhook. Skyhook is radically better... no chance to get your feet up in the air in the reserve lines. Try it. You'll LIKE it.Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
