Texas Instructors. Speak to your students please.

[bigway 4]

One of you instructors from Texas has a student with 9 jumps under his belt trying to buy gear.

Apparently he has been told that with his experience on a 230? canopy, he will be ready for a 210 now and then a 190 and should be ready for a 7cell 170 in 50 jumps.

I have ended up removing myself from this sale because i am not going to argue with someone about the fact their instructor should not be saying that. I asked him why not a 9 cell 170 (out of curiosity), he then told me his instructor said a 7 cell 170.

He then asked me what the difference is between a 9 cell and a 7 cell. I told him to speak to his instructor again.

I have been told he has now bought a second hand container that is made for a 170.
He is now trying to buy his main canopy.


Sure, all of this may be me being a dick and it all be the right thing to do for him but just in case it is not, If one of your students is the type to buy gear now while they have 9 jumps, maybe you need to speak to them and let them know they have no idea what they are doing and maybe give him some help.

If you think student is yours, PM me the name you think it is and if so i will then tell you more details and conversations shared so that you can maybe help save this student from being in a mega rush to downsize.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[freefalle 0]

I dont know you, but I feel you are an honorable person for refusing to sell someone gear you are not comfortable with them flying, speaks volumes for your character. I commend you.

chuck

[bigway 4]

thanks. I actually spoke at length with this to the manufacturer involved.

I just hope someone can stop this before an accident happens with this person.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[AggieDave 6]

Have you contacted the DZ yet? Told them whats up. Most likely the student is simply overstepping his bounds and misconstruing what his instructor actually said. Come to find out some low time jumper probably told him this or he read something like that here.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bigway 4]

It is all sorted. A very respected instructor on these forums is his instructor and is aware of it.


This thread could be deleted so there is no embarassment to the student would be great.


If the student reads this i hope he can see i did not mention any names and only posted it out of concern.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[BIGUN 1,051]

Big..

You know the DZ.
You know the Student.
You know the student "said," "My Instructor told me... " and that his Instructor probably didn't.
Contact the DZ directly via email and explain it instead of the third-party DZ.com, some Instructor in Texas, contact me with the student's name, etc.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[bigway 4]

No mate. I dont know the students dz, nor the area of the state.

This is why i posted it here. Not so it was third party but because i thought there was a good chance of the instructor realising who this person was.

It seems i was correct as well as i got what i was trying to do and that was speak to the instructor. The instructor has contacted me and explained things and i now at least know the instructor is aware of the situation.

I never mentioned names or anything as it was not about third party dz.com, it was about getting in touch with the person that needed to be made aware of the situation.



I am in Australia, Texas is a big place. The only way i know how to find a skydiving instructor in texas is by making a post here.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

The best i could do with no other information was try. That is what i did and it worked.


Some people may have just left it as they had no information to go, as I have worked on dropzones before i have come to know that these types of students stand out to the more experienced instructors and i thought someone here might just know who i am talking about. ... and they did.



I thought this was better than doing nothing at all for what i had to go on.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[VincentVL. 0]

So what's the problem with said student? PM me if you will. I don't know why a 7 cell would make this shizzle dangerous and a 9 cell wouldn't.

thx

[BIGUN 1,051]

Glad it worked out. Did you know there's a Texas _in_ Australia?

Not a joke... Just outside Queensland.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[bigway 4]

It has nothing to do with the difference between a 7 cell and a 9 cell.

My concern was a student wasting his money on buying gear while he only has 9 jumps and also my concern of him purchasing a 170 canopy while he is currently jumping a 230/210.

Sorry, I would rather not PM you the details as i have accomplished what I was trying to do (get in touch with the instructor) and not trying to make a debate over it.

I sell gear for a living and I feel responsible for the choices i make when selling to a customer so i was following up on a situation that i thought could get out of hand if the instructor was not made aware.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[VincentVL. 0]

That's all I needed to know

[bigway 4]

What I am trying to say mate is that I was concerned for a newbies safety and had no other option but to make sure the instructor was aware.

I would hate to sell something to a newbie in the sport and then them go to a dropzone where nobody knows them and they injure themselves or kill themselves.

Something in my gut has made me worry about this for the past week.

The reason I do not pm you and tell you about the situation is because you are not involved in it and i still have to consider the customers side of things and confidentiality. Even if i am just trying to make sure they are safe.


Sorry I cant say more but there really is nothing more to say. I have read the instructors PM and they sound like they are on top of the situation and always have been. I am not an instructor so i just did what i felt i needed to for the safety of a newbie to our sport.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[VincentVL. 0]

Quote

there really is nothing more to say.

I realise that. Which is why I don't need the person's details or whatever. Was just curious about the whole Cell thing.

Thx

[popsjumper 2]

Congrats to you, my friend. You did the right thing no matter how it finally turned out.

My hat is off to you.

Anybody who sells gear could take a message from Bigway...take care of the youngsters and help them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bigway 4]

Well are you going to send me your pension and buy a fucking rig off me now so i can pay fro my little puppies operation this week?


Cheers for the words mate and thanks for all the PMs. It is good to hear from others telling me i did the right thing.

The truth is, I could never compare a small profit on gear next to reading the incidents thread of a customer going in because he was on the wrong equipment. That would kill me inside.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[tdog 0]

Bigway,

1) I am not thoroughly convinced a 170 is not too small for some jumper's first canopies. Wingload, number of jumps, shown ability, etc.... All factors. A 170 for a lot of people is a 1 to 1 or 1 to 1.1 wingload. I have seen MANY new jumpers operate a 170 safely with a proper (albeit quick) progression from the larger student canopies. But lets not beat this wingload/canopy size debate to death in this thread...

More importantly:

2) I think a gear dealer, especially the first dealer a student ever buys from, is JUST as important in the educational process as the student's instructor. I know Dominic (formally of Square 1) gave me about two hours of his life educating me and helping me make purchasing decisions. I believe the reason why a 1st time buyer should be buying from a dealer is that they need the help to get them the right gear.

So my question is, why did you not "become friends" with this student and share experiences, discuss gear, and educate him? It seems like a gear dealer is somewhat excluded from the "talk to your instructors" clause as they should be an educated consultant qualified to be an instructor/educator of their customer too.... Also, the dealer can ask, "say, who is your instructor, where do you jump, lets do a three way call and get their advice too."

[bigway 4]

Quote

why did you not "become friends" with this student and share experiences, discuss gear, and educate him? It seems like a gear dealer is somewhat excluded from the "talk to your instructors" clause as they should be an educated consultant qualified to be an instructor/educator of their customer too.... Also, the dealer can ask, "say, who is your instructor, where do you jump, lets do a three way call and get their advice too."

I feel i did become friends with the guy in a way.
I helped him alot and told him everything i could and also sent his emails and my communication to the mnaufacturer. IIt was just that there was a certain amount of questions i did not feel comfortable answering over the emails and i believed that his instructor should answer for him. Especially the difference between a 7 cell and a 9 cell as i did not know how to say it over the email without turning him off his instructors advice of a 7cell and turning him on to a 9 cell.

You see if he is going to buy a canopy way before he is even at that size i dont want to sell him a 7 cell for him to get down to that size and then realise he made a mistake buying a 7 cell. I also did not want him to buy a 9 cell against his instructors advice.

I feel selling a guy a canopy that is two sizes at least below what he is on now should be done by his instructor and not myself over email.

I never asked him his dz and maybe i should of but i heard he made a purchase and though with my busy schedule this week that posting here for his instructor would get me in touch hopefully quick enough before he bought a canopy with his container he just bought.

I still speak to the guy and i even said to him that if he waits until closer to the time to be ready for this canopy that i would give him a further discount that would be very oimpressive hoping that he may give it a bit of time before he made a decision.


Secondly, i think a 170 is usually a great first canopy but i can not judge that over the emails for him.

I hope that answers your questions and you can understand where i am coming from.

On top of all of this, i have only been working as a gear dealer on my own for just over a year and i will admit i am not the most experienced person to tell people the major differences, especially over the emails.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[ceandries 0]

Bigway
I wish there were more gear dealers like you, I've seen a few people get screwed buying gear that they knew nothing about without talking to their instructors first. It shouldn't happen but it does.

[marks2065 0]

back when i started jumping another student in my class wanted to buy gear. but since he only had 8 jumps and you needed at least an A license to jump your own gear and my dz wouldn't sell him any until he got closer. this guy went to another dz and bought used gear. he bought a rig with a 150 sq ft canopy and a throw-out pilot chute. all his jumps were on 240-280 sq ft chutes with a ripcord. he showed up in quincy for the convention, got into the convention and was loading a plane when he asked someone how to use a throw-out. some one pulled him over to the manifest and didn't let him on the load. this guy was only minutes from a poss accident thanks to someone not finding out if he could handle the gear they sold him.
Bigway did a great job for what he did and i wish others would follow his example. he possibly saved a life. not to often do we see someone put safety first and profit second anymore.

[bigway 4]

you make a great point and in a way a very funny story which could have not been funny if it was not picked up.... however, in no way here have a I saved a life. a 170 canopy for thi guy in my opinion would have been a pretty good first canopy for him, by the time it would have been ready. though, I can only base my opinion from emails and I will never take an email from a student as accurate as I would from a experienced jumper.

my major concern here was himself only having 9 jumps and I do not believe he is anywhere knowing what he wants but I was after readig his emails and his reasoning for buying this canopy and his plan to progress to it, I was prepared to sell it to him. the reason I stopped in my tracks to a sudden hault on continuing the sales communication was because I asked him why he wanted to buy a 7 cell and not a 9cell. he answered me by asking to explain the difference in the 2 and that is when I thought there is no way I can take 1450usd off a newbie for a canopy that he can not possibly know if he will want in 4 months down the track. he told me it is what his instructor said would be a good canopy for him and as much as I respect his instructor I do not believe that the instructor knows if a 7 cell is the suitable canopy for him 4 months down the track either. I believe the instruuctor must have thought ' if this kid is determined to by one, I will tell him a 7 cell, just in case he is not ready for a 9 cell down the line'. I did not think that I fair. I have since found out it was advised cause he saw a second hand one and the instructor said it would be ok.

Personally, I just don't want to see anyone,;especially someone new to the sport buying something and then feeling like the made the wrong choice.

if it was a student wanting a 150 I would have emailed every manufacturer and let them know to keep an eye out as that could be a death sentence.

Still, the kid has 9 jumps, nobody should be buyng a rig with only 9 jumps. get at least 25 under your belt at a minimum before you even start demoing canopies.

I am not in this business for the profit. I live off other ventures in life. I simply started his to give uk jumpers the chance to get gear t the same price as american jumpers. I sell gear cause I love giving people the customer service and instant replies that I like when buyig something. if I can't give that service for the dropzone I wish I owned then I will do it through gear sales until I can do it through the office of my ow dz.

tdog bought up some great points of good gear service. if you are looking at buying gear, go have a coffee with your gear supplier and ask them to watch you land and what they can suggest. if your local gear store is so issolated and their prices are too high, still do this with them, just ask them to price match.

there is no reason any gear store should not meet those of the cheapest online gear stores you can find. I sure as hell know that I have never sold any gear as high as the prices I list on my website.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[skybytch 259]

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there is no reason any gear store should not meet those of the cheapest online gear stores you can find.

Sure there are. Rent. Phone. Internet service. Electricity. Employee wages. Fixing/replacing broken office machines. And the other things and people that must be paid to have a gear store on a dropzone instead of working out of a garage.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

thanks. I actually spoke at length with this to the manufacturer involved.

I just hope someone can stop this before an accident happens with this person.

A
170 at 50 jumps would not be uncommon here in OZ Gary.
What was his wingload?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[bigway 4]

I was meaning all distributors should be able to meet the same prices as places like square 1, etc
I can not imagine many turning a customer away because they refuse to meet the same prices as square1.

I understand about the rent, overheads etc. I am right now negotiating with my store being on a dropzone.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

Squeak, my issue was that he only had 9 jumps and lacked the knowledge of purchasing a canopy 41 jumps down the track. maybe if he had 150 jumps and was looking into the future. Just someone with 9 jumps should worry about it when they come to it as they have not had a chance to figure out the type, make, model size they will be wanting.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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