Student Emergency Exit Training- One Handle or Two

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Hi,
This is a branch from the Italian fatality thread.
If you are using static line please use options 4 or 5 only.
If your DZ uses SOS please use that option only; any other answer pollutes the data.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

Is this a trick question because it depends on many factors? For instance, is this the students first jump or the students 24th jump?

In answer to the question we teach a student to exit with their hand on reserve and to pull 1 second after exit if the exit is low. If the altitude is higher we teach a student to exit with their hand on their main handle and to pull 1 second after exit.

If we have a really high altitude we would do a normal linked student exit for an AFF student or if the student was cleared for self supervision we would just have them jump and deploy normally.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[labrys 0]

I don't understand the question. Are you asking what a student is trained to do if they have a malfunction during an emergency exit? If not, I don't see what cutting away has to do with it.

Owned by Remi #?

[MajorDad 0]

Cheers Andrew.

If this is a load of IAD First Jump Students it will depend on the altitude and the commands of the pilot.

If the pilot says we are landing, we land (and pray).

If the pilot wants the jumpers out and it is below the safe level to put them out on their main, the JM will communicate that they are going out on the reserve and place their hand in their reserve handle before telling them to "GO" taking care to manage the student off the aircraft. The action of them arching after they leave the aircraft deploys the reserve.

If there is enough altitude to put them out under their main the JM will communicate that to the student and grab their pilot chute out of the pouch. On the command "GO" the JM will short line the student and they can kick out of their line twists.

This is covered on their First Jump Course for the student of course.

Blue ones

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I don't understand the question. Are you asking what a student is trained to do if they have a malfunction during an emergency exit? If not, I don't see what cutting away has to do with it.

From that response I surmise that you teach them to use their main on an emergency exit. What do you teach them if the altitude is too low? Who makes that decision, the JM or the student based on an altitude you tell them in the FJC?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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If there is enough altitude to put them out under their main the JM will communicate that to the student and grab their pilot chute out of the pouch. On the command "GO" the JM will short line the student and they can kick out of their line twists.

This is covered on their First Jump Course for the student of course.

Blue ones

Hmm, if the j/m has time to prep each pilot chute then I am not sure it is an emergency exit.

[labrys 0]

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From that response I surmise that you teach them to use their main on an emergency exit. What do you teach them if the altitude is too low? Who makes that decision, the JM or the student based on an altitude you tell them in the FJC?

No, I honestly mean that I don't understand what cutting away has to do with emergency exits. 2 of your poll options involve cutting away.

WRT teaching emergency exits, students at my home DZ are taught to exit as instructed, on main or reserve depending on what their instructor tells them. The instructor makes the decision based on altitude and rate of descent if the plane is descending. They are taught to place a hand on the intended handle when instructed and before exiting and to arch and count "one-thousand" before pulling.

Owned by Remi #?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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From that response I surmise that you teach them to use their main on an emergency exit. What do you teach them if the altitude is too low? Who makes that decision, the JM or the student based on an altitude you tell them in the FJC?

No, I honestly mean that I don't understand what cutting away has to do with emergency exits. 2 of your poll options involve cutting away.

WRT teaching emergency exits, students at my home DZ are taught to exit as instructed, on main or reserve depending on what their instructor tells them. The instructor makes the decision based on altitude and rate of descent if the plane is descending. They are taught to place a hand on the intended handle when instructed and before exiting and to arch and count "one-thousand" before pulling.

Right. That is the information I am looking for. There are some places that believe that on the first jump course you teach emergency procedures one way and one way only. Teaching them to pull two handles in one situation and only one handle in others can lead to confusion during an emergency.
The fatality in Italy appears to be the result of a junior jumper pulling his reserve before the main cutaway. This led to a discussion about total malfunction procedures; this led me to expand the discussion here to include emergency exits.

[labrys 0]

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Teaching them to pull two handles in one situation and only one handle in others can lead to confusion during an emergency.

I'm still confused. You're saying that some DZs teach students to pull 2 handles in an emergency exit? Am I reading that correctly?

Which 2 handles? What possible benefit would there ever be to pulling 2 handles no matter which 2 they were?

Owned by Remi #?

[diablopilot 2]

Totally dependent on the altitude of the emergency exit.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[MajorDad 0]

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If there is enough altitude to put them out under their main the JM will communicate that to the student and grab their pilot chute out of the pouch. On the command "GO" the JM will short line the student and they can kick out of their line twists.

This is covered on their First Jump Course for the student of course.

Blue ones

Hmm, if the j/m has time to prep each pilot chute then I am not sure it is an emergency exit.

Actually it is. In addition to the standard BOC pouch for the student's pilot chute we also have one on the left side where it is placed for IAD's. This makes it easy for the JM to get it for dispatching rather than making the student bend over.

For an emergency exit the student is taught to move to the door and place a foot on the step facing towards the tail. The JM can easily get the pilot chute out of the side pouch as the student is moving towards the door and guiding him out.

The time to get all the students out on their mains is about an extra 5 to 10 seconds per student and the JM can easily switch to reserves only for the later students if the plane is decending faster than anticipated.

I can show you next time you are out to Eden North.

Blue ones

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[AndyMan 7]

I follow the advice of the IRM.

Section 3-3 AFF Emergencies

A. Aircraft Malfunctions

.
.
.

3: Bailout: Exit and pull reserve.

a: The instructor guides the student to the door.
b. The student places his or her left hand on the reserve ripcord and pulls two seconds after exit.
c: With sufficient altitude, the student may use a similar procedure with the main parachute.


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Teaching them to pull two handles in one situation and only one handle in others can lead to confusion during an emergency.

I'm still confused. You're saying that some DZs teach students to pull 2 handles in an emergency exit? Am I reading that correctly?

Which 2 handles? What possible benefit would there ever be to pulling 2 handles no matter which 2 they were?

The benefit is that you teach one and one only procedure and drill it in good. It does follow the KISS principle. And yes, according to the poll results at least three people out there teach a full two handle procedure during an emergency bail out.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Actually it is. In addition to the standard BOC pouch for the student's pilot chute we also have one on the left side where it is placed for IAD's. This makes it easy for the JM to get it for dispatching rather than making the student bend over.

For an emergency exit the student is taught to move to the door and place a foot on the step facing towards the tail. The JM can easily get the pilot chute out of the side pouch as the student is moving towards the door and guiding him out.

The time to get all the students out on their mains is about an extra 5 to 10 seconds per student and the JM can easily switch to reserves only for the later students if the plane is decending faster than anticipated.

I can show you next time you are out to Eden North.

Blue ones

Yes, we have the same side pouch on our gear (as do the previous two places I worked at). Nonetheless for simplicity's sake we have three scenarios:
1) the student has the time to do a full hanging exit.
2) the instructor has the pilot chute already in his hand (jumper # next only)
3) Student is going reserve.

[riggerrob 558]

If the pilot starts yelling "Everyone out!"

It depends upon the altitude.
If we are close to normal exit altitude and I have a student in the doorway and I am already holding their pilot chute (for a standard IAD exit) I will just tell them to do a quick version of their regular exit.

The second student depends upon altitude.
I might grab their main pilot chute out of the side pouch ... don't see the logic to short-lining them????

Depending upon altitude, later students will probably be told "This is an emergency! Get out and pull your reserve!"
I would pull/shove/etc. them to the door, place their left hand on their reserve handle and shove them out the door.
I would try to push them off with my hand on the reserve flap, in case they panicked and pulled the ripcord too early.
No time for politeness or ceremony, because my duty (as jump-master) is to be the last person out alive.

It never occurred to me to mention a cutaway handle during a low emergency exit????

[MajorDad 0]

The rational for short-lining them if they are doing emergency exit under there main is that there is an even greater possibility of them leaving unstable and possibly grabbing, trapping the pilot chute.

If the instructor hangs onto the PC until the D-bag is coming off the back, then the student can then kick out of his line twist and carry on with his day.

(PS - I fully intend to beat the pilot out of the plane )

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[Orange1 0]

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If we have a really high altitude we would do a normal linked student exit for an AFF student or if the student was cleared for self supervision we would just have them jump and deploy normally.

Question... AFF students often take a while to set up for a linked exit, in an emergency exit situation do you really have time for this? Or is there a "shortcut" linked exit that you use?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Baksteen 84]

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Teaching them to pull two handles in one situation and only one handle in others can lead to confusion during an emergency.

I'm still confused. You're saying that some DZs teach students to pull 2 handles in an emergency exit? Am I reading that correctly?

Which 2 handles? What possible benefit would there ever be to pulling 2 handles no matter which 2 they were?

The benefit is that you teach one and one only procedure and drill it in good. It does follow the KISS principle. And yes, according to the poll results at least three people out there teach a full two handle procedure during an emergency bail out.

Not an instructor, but I was wondering:
You are in a 182 at 1000 ft with your last student and the engine's on fire. Would you still like them to execute full EPs / ride the plane down?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Not an instructor, but I was wondering:
You are in a 182 at 1000 ft with your last student and the engine's on fire. Would you still like them to execute full EPs / ride the plane down?

Well, in that situation I would like them to go straight to reserve. The poll results do however indicate that there are different opinions out there. I have a question for you. You are in the classroom in a First Jump course; how many different emergency scenario/responses are you going to introduce with the reasonable expectation of performance under duress?

[Baksteen 84]

I like what i was taught:

(top of my head)
Below 1000: ride the plane down
above 1000 ft: prepare for exit with little separation.(I was static line)

When you graduate to freefall it becomes:
below 2k activate reserve, above activate main.

The "advanced" scenarios are gradually introduced during the periodic harness tests, to make you think.

But I must confess, an aircraft emergency was the last thing on my mind when i was going up for my first jump.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Doing a static line program simplifies the matter greatly, because there is no choice in the matter; if you are leaving, you are going main. It is an advantage that the static line is a very fast deployment method; it is a disadvantage that if you only have room for one the main is not the more reliable.
Adding complexity to the training as you progress is consistent with most aspects skydiving. The real kicker is the first jump training.

[MajorDad 0]

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Not an instructor, but I was wondering:
You are in a 182 at 1000 ft with your last student and the engine's on fire. Would you still like them to execute full EPs / ride the plane down?

You can go through as many scenarios as you want. The reality is each situation is different and the answer is "it depends".

I know what I would probably do, but I have been jumpmastering for over 13 years and taught a lot of First Jump Courses in that time.

What people will do will depend on the situation, their training, their experience and their skills and their awareness.

Since most of the aircraft emergencies over the last few years involve takeoff or landing, these are the ones people should be especially aware of how to handle themselves.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[popsjumper 2]

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...according to the poll results at least three people out there teach a full two handle procedure during an emergency bail out.

Obviously there's at least three voting people out there who don't know what the hell you are asking. How do mal procedures tie in with emergency bailout procedures?

Two different animals, totally different procedures.

For the life of me I can't figure out how a cutaway has to do with emergency bailout procedures? Are you including a mal after the bailout or what?

Maybe going back and re-phrasing your question for clarity would help. As you can see, your responses are all over the map...different maps.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

I hope this helps your quest:

We use BOC throw-out, two handle systems here.

Emergency bailouts:
Pilot commands exit, Instructor commands procedure:
- Bailout on main: Grasp main deployment handle, exit facing the wind, count 1 one thousand Pull one thousand.
- Bailout on reserve: Grasp reserve deployment handle, exit facing the wind, count 1 one thousand Pull one thousand.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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...according to the poll results at least three people out there teach a full two handle procedure during an emergency bail out.

Obviously there's at least three voting people out there who don't know what the hell you are asking. How do mal procedures tie in with emergency bailout procedures?

I don't think that is true. I don't think it is completely out to lunch to teach a first jump student one and one only emergency procedure drill, especially an IAD student. It is not what we do, but I do not find the concept unreasonable.