solo sidespin recovery drill dives?

[feuergnom 22]

recently i did a little searching on side-spins in the forums

apparently there is still very little knowledge of this phenomenon out there, how and why side-spins develop and how to get out of them if you are unlucky enough to find yourself in on

in my training as a strong-TI i had to do some solos inducing side-spins and recovering from them and i must admit it was a big eye-opener on how fast you can spin being solo...
so how many of you actually went into a side-spin on purpose (solo of course) and what are your experiences?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[camamel 0]

I did try it twice.
It remember me when I start freefalling in the 70's.
When somebody was too stiff they end up flat spinning. Some where spinning fast enough to be desoriented. The way to get out of that was tracking. Pretty much like a side spin recovery for me.

Richard

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[kevino 0]

Tandem side spins.

I had my first, and only, tandem sidespin on my 10th tandem jump. Very scary. Doing a hard arch did nothing to sort out the problem. LUCKILY I was drogue up, tossed the drogue and got stable.

Doing a track to get out of the sidespin makes a lot of sense to me. The key to avoiding a sidespin is a good exit.

KevinO

[DualHawk 0]

I just got 100 copies of the Side Spin DVD back from the printer today. I will be handing them out at our booth in Barcelona.

If you won't be at PIA, and are a Tandem Instructor/Examiner/DZO Safety Officer or S&TA, and you would like a copy, let me know and I'll mail you one.

For anyone that has already sent me their contact info from the other thread, the DVDs should be mailed out by weeks end.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[email protected]

[feuergnom 22]

as usual when creating polls, you only realize later which options you have missed

so if you want to answer in detail it would be nice to state which rating you hold

thx for the answers so far

edit: spell

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Tom,
I know you don't want to post the video, but will you attach it in an email to registered TMs?

Andrew

[DualHawk 0]

Hi Andrew, it's a 47 minute video, so I'm pretty sure that it would be too large of a file to email.

Ironically enough, we have also converted the Side Spin Video to a Pod Cast, and I just reviewed the first file on my IPod.

Short term solution is the DVD sent snail mail. Long term, we will inevitably post it on our website (most likely in March after PIA) and provide password access on request for download.

We want every tandem instructor, tandem examiner, DZ Safety Officer, National Federation Safety Officer and every S&TA out there to have access to this information.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[skydivingchad 0]

I never got around to trying to induce a side spin solo.

I had a side spin on tandem #5 the back flip jump.
luckily we were drogue side up.

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
Pelt Head #3

[ryoder 1,381]

After watching the Strong Sidespin video, I tried it a few times. I could get into position, and feel the kick of acceleration, but I could never stay on my side through an entire revolution. I always rolled out of it unintentionally.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[diablopilot 2]

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After watching the Strong Sidespin video, I tried it a few times. I could get into position, and feel the kick of acceleration, but I could never stay on my side through an entire revolution. I always rolled out of it unintentionally.

Ditto. I had 1000 tandems, and had to work to put myself into one. Maintaing an arch when you're not relative to the wind is what causes and makes it get worse. I haven't tried the "tracking out of it" method, but think the ball up and take the rotation method works great.

Being aware of the relative wind on exit is THE key to avoiding it. Simply blasting out the door and expecting a "hard arch" to fix everything will bite and instructor in the ass eventually.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skydiveoc 0]

I agree with diablo...maybe backfly practice with emphasis on belly to earth transition by pivoting on your head. Like a head down transition from backfly. Mostly legs doing the work with an arch as you rotate over. Backfly will take the velocity out of the spin, transition with a blast from the pelvis and chuck it when you feel yourself going on the belly axis. Barrel roll from the back doesnt work for me as the fetal arms and legs get in the way and requires more arm effort.

You have a small window of opportunity. If you wait too long, you'll end up on your side again as the student is probably still in a terrible position.

Its the same transition I used to teach freefly students to get on their head...maintain backfly, then arch, head back to look for the horizon behind you and drive with the legs. The good part here is that your arms are mostly out of it...maybe driving with the legs to a back track position and should be right next to the drogue ready to fire.

It is the same position many TMs use as a backloop exit on the relative wind. I love this exit as it places my back to the relative wind, not a fetaling student. I just have to backloop 1/2 way and the drogue is already properly positioned to the relative wind and often my hand is on the handle ready to chuck when I see the ground come around. The fetal student actually helps you rotate around but again dont wait...

I dont recommend grabbing or grapevining the student. Youve just stopped flying your body at that point and have taken away the power of your legs. Maybe as a last resort to gain control but never as a primary means.

Solo sidespin practice is a waste of time. Its like trying to practice grappling by yourself. I recommend practicing the back to head back to belly transition.

[shermanator 3]

Though not a TI now, I may be one some day.. I'm very interested in sidespins. I tried finding some video to educate myself, but found nothing. Does anyone know of some footage/more information on sidespins that someone like me, who is not a TI can view and learn from. Thanks.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[ryoder 1,381]

Quote

Though not a TI now, I may be one some day.. I'm very interested in sidespins. I tried finding some video to educate myself, but found nothing. Does anyone know of some footage/more information on sidespins that someone like me, who is not a TI can view and learn from. Thanks.

Contact Strong for a copy of their instructional video.

A quick search of YouTube pulled up this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieE1bQQ8tEE

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Mask 0]

Had to do 2 during my TI training as well. Had no idea what the examiner was talking about / telling me do to. So I just did what he told me to get into side spin. I will not post details cause I don't want anybody to try without detailed instruction how to get out of it again (not even solo). Only thing I want to say is that it is f*ing fast and stopping it takes some time as well.(wommit)

I was really impressed.

Lesson learned: Get out stable!

The good don't always win.

[DualHawk 0]

Crisis diverted....lol

The 100 Side Spin DVDs that I made came THISCLOSE to being shipped to Barcelona on me before I could set aside the ones I planned to mail out to those of you that requested them. I caught them going out the door, crisis diverted...lol

Anyways, thank you all for your emails and pms here on dz.com. I believe I was able to reply directly to most of you. If you sent me an email or a pm requesting a DVD and haven't heard back from me, it's only because your message hit my blackberry at 3am...and then got lost in email limbo...lol

I will be putting them all in the mail tomorrow.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[danielcroft 2]

I'm no TM or TI but I was hoping someone would indulge my curiosity and explain what a side spin is? I don't want to know how to do it! :)

[diablopilot 2]

Imagine a tandem pair side on to the relative wind. The TI is arching, the student is not, and their legs and maybe arms are forward in a pike like position. This configuration will start an aerodynamically induced rotation. The centrifugal force of this rotation will cause the body positions to become more exaggerated allowing for more aerodynamic rotational forces to play. It's a vicious circle and it happens fast.


Fortunately, if you're aware and relaxed it's a hard thing to get into and relatively easy to get out of, if you sense it it at the onset.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DualHawk 0]

I just finished typing the last of the labels, all the DVDs are in the mail.

I'm off to Barcelona!

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[murps2000 86]

apparently there is still very little knowledge of this phenomenon out there, how and why side-spins develop and how to get out of them if you are unlucky enough to find yourself in on ***

I practiced them before I had a rating, and got into the real deal afterward. I was tired after hauling meat all day when it happened to me, and got lazy on exit. It was one of those days where you would land, take your passenger back to the hangar, and have about ten minutes to get your new one geared up, briefed and to the plane. I don't think I had the harness adjusted that well, and it didn't help to have one of those "deer in the headlights" students either.

As others have pointed out, prevention by flying the relative wind on exit is the way to go, and I agree completely. In the video, however, Bill Morrisey is absolutely correct in emphasizing that when it does happen, recognition of spin entry must be immediate. It only takes a few seconds to reach a point where you won't be able to fly your way out of it. If you haven't been in one, you have no concept of how strong the forces become or how rapidly that happens. If you do not pull a handle pretty soon after that point you will begin to approach your physiological limits.

One thing that I found interesting was that although it required some physical effort to get to the drogue handle, it was no problem to deploy it. Centrifugal force or centripetal acceleration, whatever you want to call it, actually helped me get the drogue out. Things settled down after that. I guess some TI's in the video went for their reserves, and I won't tell anyone what to do, but I had thought about it beforehand and that was never going to be my first choice. Of course some of those poor TI's in that video probably had no idea what the hell was going on back then. I sure am glad they contributed to that video for the rest of us. Thanks to Bill for making it.

[DualHawk 0]

Well, I carried (by hand...lol) 60 copies of the DVD to Barcelona, and left with only 1 copy...lol It was great meeting all of you out there, and thank you for attending my tandem seminar.

Including the DVDs I mailed before I left, I believe I was able to get 89 copies of the Side Spin Phenomenon out into the field to instructors and safety officers.

I received a few more requests while I was away, those are leaving tomorrow.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[morten 0]

Quote

thank you all for your emails and pms

PMS is not something to be thankfull for

[FFAddict 0]

I am a relatively new tanddem master (400 tandems) and am actually surprised by the lack understanding by many about what a side spin is and how to get out of it if it develops. There are, as with all things skydiving, many different oppinions but here is mine.

Side spin was covered endlessly in my TM ground training, i was tought and experience has now shown me that a side spin essentially develops when you are not presented to the wind correctly. Whether you are presenting your head, back, belly... it does not matter. A side spin will develop if the relative wind is allowed to hit the tandem pair from the side pulling the tandem passenger away from the TM. This will usually happen from a combination of poor presentation on exit and the tandem master arching hard whilst the passenger dearches (experienced tandem masters will im sure realise how few passengers actually arch). If the TM and passenger are essentially arching in opposite directions they act like opposing propellers trying to turn in opposite directions which causes a loss of control and in turn the side spin.
The solution is simple, make a strong exit presenting into wind and follow the line of your passenger. If the passenger doesnt arch and you cant help them to do it then dont arch. Freefly has shown if nothing else that the hard arch rule isnt so important after all for solo jumping so why would it work for tandems?

Im sure you will all have your own oppinions on this, i hope this is somewhat usefull to some of you