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tsalnukt

tandems before funjumpers

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we had this issue at my dz this summer. with the tandems getting out at 10500 - 11000. on 2 loads i landed before a couple tandems. i had serious issues with this and quit jumping for the day and later talked to the dzo. i didn't like opening in the flight line of the tandems heading back to the dz. with multiple planes they usually have offset jump runs to avoid these issues but with only 1 plane they may not think of this problem. the offset jumprun needs to also consider the earlier canopies flight back to the lz. until this thread i didn't even think of an a/c emergency. i see no good reason to put the tandems out low, the added jump run costs more in fuel and time, the idea of ti's doing back to backs robs the student of the post dive debreif, and the safety concerns really bother me.

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I must admit, I have done it both ways and prefer the tandems out first. Some advantages are: You actually get a bit more time to be with the student prior to the plane landing. You do not have to rush as much, letting you pay attention to detail. I admit it adds some concerns. The jumpers must look out the door to assure their is clear air and jump run should be offset. Also being coser to the door you do not have to drag the meat from the back of the plane all day, which wears on you a bit. I guess this is very selfish though.

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yes i always look out the door or have someone i trust check if i'm to far away. we did hold exit until we were clear but got yelled at for hosing the spot for the next group. since we were not able to get the situation worked out most of us quit jumping for the day and i talked to the dzo a couple days later. but still the issue should have never been an issue. from that time on i refuse to jump if the tandems go out first or won't leave until they are on the ground

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you do not have to drag the meat from the back of the plane all day, which wears on you a bit. I guess this is very selfish though.



Since "the meat" usually prefers you to be not all worn out on their tandemjump it is not that selfish. :)
I don't trust most of my jumpers enough to not punch a hole in my canopy if they jump on the second pas. That cannot happen when they all have left the plane before it is my turn...

but it is a preference rather than a rule.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I think this is only a method at busier DZ's. But Safety is of the utmost importance. A full debrief should be given to all jumpers if this method is to be used. If you are not sure just grab the ST&A and let him give some insight. Regardless everyone should be looking down as well as all around while in F.F. How many times have you spotted something below to alarm you? Planes, clouds, helicopters, balloons, birds, and yes canopies.

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I don't trust most of my jumpers enough to not punch a hole in my canopy if they jump on the second pas. That cannot happen when they all have left the plane before it is my turn...
***
I rather have no chance than even a thiny one.
I agree with you on that.


Richard
When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

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Straddle benches will help "haul the meat", or students as we like to call them, from one end of the plane to the other, with very little effort. You should be paying attention to detail regardless of how rushed you are and if I ever get yelled at for moving slow because I'm doing gear checks just makes me go slower. IMO...It's better to take an extra 20 seconds and do everything right than to rush forget/miss something and waste more time later.

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Couple of years ago we had an engine out (twin otter) at about 9000', Just when you are getting ready to hook-up passengers and the pilot said "get out". Everything went nice and smooth and everyone got out orderly and without any chaos. It was perfect timing to get my pax strapped on and briefed as we are sliding closer to the door. (we use straddle benches which does make a world of difference) Over the years I have been at place where the DZO thinks they're saving time by putting out the tandems at 10.500 and taking the fun jumpers the rest of the way up. I got to thinking what if there were a bunch of tandems on the floor by the door and we had an engine out at 6000'? Granted it's not a horrible situation with one good engine still but what if the pilot really wanted the people out. I think that it would take longer to "evacuate the plane than it would if the fun jumpers were by the door. Sometimes time is critical.




Glad to hear your situation went well...


Quote


Diablopilot said:
Judging by what I see of newer jumpers habits today, getting on the airplane with loose legstraps, never once looking out the door to see where they are until jumprun, having helmets out of reach, etc., I have strong doubts that some would be able to get out of the aircraft before my student and I do in the event of an emergency even if I'm sitting BEHIND them.

If you want to address safety, start there.




... however... given what DP said (which I tend to agree with too) and the number of times I've heard the topic of emergency exits discussed both here at DZ.com and around the DZ after a few beers... I often wonder if 90% would be as cool, calm, collected, cooperative and bad-assed as we say (or think) we would in the event of a real aircraft emergency?

Anyway, on topic... the subject of putting Tandems out first, say at 10.5K on the way up, has come up before. Its fine to talk about and makes a good discussion, but I'm surprised to hear that there are still DZOs out there that think its a "good idea"... for lots of the reasons brought up here. [Speculation]Sounds like the DZO in question here might be trying to fix something else... like the Tandems going long and not being able to or bitching about being able to make it back and the DZO not wanting to see a go around... so his (or her) soloution is to chuck them out first on the way up?[/Speculation]

As a fun jumper, I'd rather exit in front of the Tandems at altitude. Turning to track after a ??-way and finding yourself headed towards a Tandem canopy and/or his camera person SUCKS... been there done that. :(

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Whats the chances of running a Railroad tracks at the same time a train crosses...for example what if a TM has a premature drogue release...now u have a huge canopy holding upwind where funjumpers may be freefalling/drifting..personally i wanna be concentrating on docks not hmmm wonder if pilot dropped me over an open canopy"...look out belowwwww...""better safe than sorry,eh?!?"

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We have plenty of time between jumpruns, so for normal skydives there never is a problem. We are used to jumpruns at various altitudes in the same stick: 3.5-5k, 7k, 9k, 12k. So when anything like a premature opening happens, tandem or otherwise, the pilot gets a call from manifest.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Do you really let people out on a seperate jump-run at 9000 and 12000????? Why would anyone want to get out 1500 lower than normal j/r? unless that's as hi as you go. OK..manifest tells the pilot there's a premature so the plane has to fly around, waste gas, and wait for that canopy to get out of the way before letting everyone else out. Seems very inefficient to me.

What happens when manifest doesn't see the premature or doesn't get a chance to call up? That's a lot of people flying around at diffrent altitudes.

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Hi,

I know this forum is for instructors, so mods, feel free to delete if I shouldn't be posting here.

I'm just curious, does it seem a lot of these scenarios are implying normal exit order vs. emergency exit order? I've never jumped from a large aircraft, either, so I might not know how things should work. But what if said emergency happened at say, 2000 feet or lower? I'm not saying whoever's near the door should just blindly get out, but if I'm in the door and there's an emergency, I'm not going to turn to the TI behind me and say, 'Here, you go ahead.' I'm gonna make sure I'm not over a huge lake or something, have my hands on the appropriate handles, and get the hell out. This is about staying alive, not saving the DZO money. Or is this the wrong attitude?

Just my opinion.
PULL!! or DIE!!

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I have been to four DZ's I can think of that had lower passes for tandems and higher pass for funjumpers.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That made sense a long time ago (i.e. before ZP canopies and turbine engines) but makes less sense with every passing year.

It really only makes sense on single-Cessna (piston-pounding) DZs when tandem students INSIST on jumping from 12,000 feet, BUT the plane takes all day to get there.
Tee!
Hee!

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You check for traffic do you? Canopies are included. Also, manifest is ALWAYS in contact with the pilot. As for different altitudes, someone may need to do a 9k jump for their SL/AFF progression and it's a few bucks cheaper than 12k. Yes every now and then we have to do a go-around. Usually we need at least 4 jumpers for a specific altitude to make separate jumpruns otherwise it's too expensive. We can also do 10.5 jumpruns for FS4 training, then the rest goes to 13k.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Our DZ (operating a grand caravan) started doing lower passes for tandems (10.5ish) occasionally last year, when it would help. Worked great. Only did it when TMs would be making back to back loads. They were all set with their rigs and students by the time the plane landed. Otherwise the plane would be sitting there idling for a few minutes while they rushed like crazy. Made life easier on them. Only complaint I heard was from a video guy that felt like he wasn't getting his money's worth (video guys pay slot+$10 to the DZ).

We also did a bunch of low passes for 4-way teams. Makes life a lot easier on them (I LOVE 10.5 passes when doing 4-way video) when making back to backs.

But yeah, the faster the plane climbs, the less advantage you'll get from lower passes. But there's still a DZ near here offering tandems from 6000 feet (for the discount price they advertise).

Dave

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The primary reason for offering tandems from 6,000 feet was to avoid taking first-generation tandem canopies to terminal, to avoid hard openings.
Remember that first-generation tandem mains were to same as the tandem reserves that we still use today.

Since the introduction of ZP tandem mains, the notion of tandems exiting at 6000' has become "quaint."

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the dz i work at is a tandem mill, with 4 other similar operations , within 100 miles, we offer 6000' jumps at a cheap price ,mainly to get customers thru the door.probably more than 70% upgrade to 12 or 14000'.(we offer free upgrade to 8000',if they get handcam.)
most of us tm's love those lower jumps.

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First, I don't like being out before fun jumpers as a tandem instructor, the canopy simply takes too long to descend... it's stupid not to exit in the order of opening altitudes when there is such a big difference ie 5500 vs 3500ish...
Second I ride up with my passenger partially hooked up for the exact reason you bring up, and i think I'd skip the briefing if the plane was on fire or something...
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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