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popsjumper

Rate the AFFI Course Directors

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I can understand that the learning should take place in the pre-course and the testing in the course itself.



That is bull-crappy.... As long as the candidate is showing the skills needed to be an AFF instructor, why not use every jump, every exercise, as a way to make them a better AFF instructor. (I am not talking about helping someone without the core skills to pass).



Geez, Tdog. Two points of view addressing two different, yet similar, things. I noted your use of the qualifier phrase, "As long as the candidate is showing the skills needed to be an AFF instructor".
Take advantage of every opportunity to teach and learn? Abso-fucking-lutely!

Teaching while giving a test? Sometime, somewhere you have to prove that you've learned what you know...having to teach while testing kinda gives me creeps that the candidate really hasn't learned it yet and may not retain it even if he "passes" the test.

Your qualifier aside, it's great that a CD would do that...it doesn't give me a warm-fuzzy when a candidate needs that help to "pass".
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Your qualifier aside, it's great that a CD would do that...it doesn't give me a warm-fuzzy when a candidate needs that help to "pass".



Not help to "pass". Help to make them a better AFFI.

Passing is easy. Being a good AFF is a work of art. The art part is not evaluated in the course, so helping the candidate in this field does not discredit the candidates core skills.

Here is a real world example... I asked Bram in an evaluation: "Can I ask you a timed out question... At home the AFFIs only have their students wear gloves in the winter time, and hence I would not check for gloves on this dive, but you have them in your hand and it is hot out here... In your career, what have you experienced as pros and cons of students wearing gloves? Do you require them, or should I suggest you can put them away as a student? Are there pull problems? Canopy problems? EP Problems?"

This became a fruitful conversation with someone outside of my "home territory" to see if there are different schools of thought at other DZs. I could have just told him to put on the damn gloves and passed the course without learning.

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Fortunately, you had a CD that would allow those time-outs and those "real world" types of questions...and actually learn something along the way to help make them better AFFIs.

Course Work vs Real World. At least one CD I know of says they are two different animals...one does not relate to the other. FWIW, I don't think that is a productive way to think.

You said "passing is easy"...assuming you have the skills and if you know what the requirements are and what is expected of you, then I would agree with that.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Anybody willing to provide input on who is a good AFFI course Director



I just returned from an AFFI pre-course + course in Deland, FL. Course Director was Rob Laidlaw, and he had a couple evaluators on hand to work with our class. The whole course was well planned, using blue sky time whenever it was available for jumping. The classroom time happpened when we had clouds. Our class was small: only 4 students. Each received equal training. Since the class was so small, if one of us needed extra coaching on a particular area (like my bad habit of regripping student after release when a grip wasn't necessary), then an evaluator would be made aware of that issue and would be set to the task of correcting it. All staff members who were involved in this course appeared to be on the same page, with each evaluator throwing the same amount of flip/roll/spin/de-arch/float/sink/upside-down maneuvers during testing.

I chose this course because at 150 jumps I'd attended Rob Laidlaw's canopy control course, and he'd been a great instructor who provided a solid base for safe canopy progression. I wanted to go back for his instruction in AFF.

I'd also been tempted to go to Bram's course in Z-hills, but one of the deciding factors was that Bram requires an AAD to take his course and I don't have one, didn't feel like installing one just for the course.

Another benefit of doing AFFI in Deland: We got the opportunity to practice AFF exits from Twin Otter, Sky van, and PAC 750. I'm glad we got to use a tail gate... now I feel confident about those exits. And more good stuff about the course in Deland: housing was affordable. A local RW coach owns a house or two and rents out rooms. You can get close accomodations with all the amenities for cheap.

Attached photo is my class after we graduated, going up for a tracking dive with one of our evaluators, Carl. Photo by Rkymtnhigh

Chris

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Hopefully you won't feel like doing any student AFF jumps without an AAD. Just my thought on the matter.
tom
I know this is another matter altogether but there it is!
I also remember hearing that if your dz has many different a/c you must be prepared for any or all of them during your course!
tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

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Mr. Popsjumper,

DZ.com has Gear reviews
DZ.com has DZ reviews

So... Since you started a thread that clearly shows Course Directors provide various qualities of goods and services... How about you contact the powers that be to expand the review system to include the directors!

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I had the opportunity to sit in on a Rhodes AFF course where I was doing the video for the guys taking the course and was glad that I decided to take a few more jumps to hone my skills before taking the AFF course.

What I observed from it was Rhodes is the most disrespectful person I have ever met in the terms of paying someone to teach me something.
I agree that you should know your discipline well before attempting to teach it but your going to be nervous anyway, being evaluated. And to hear him tell the guys when they got down from their jumps(What the F*^& were thinking, I have never seen anyone so stupid).I had told the guys if that were me I would have got my moneys worth of an ass whoopin and not be talked to in that manner.

But I did take the course with Bram Clements and it was the better than I ever expected it to be, of course seeing the worst before hand.

Bram will still shot you straight but with alot of respect when doing so and also teaches you to do the same to your students.
I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

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"Many courses were never registered with USPA Headquarters, which is a requirement
for any USPA rating course. Some of those courses took place at a location that
was not a USPA Group Member drop zone, even though Group Membership is a requirement
for any drop zone to host a USPA rating course."

This is a quote from the USPA Professional e-newsletter. If you are taking a course, finding out if it is registered might be a good place to start.
If your I/E doesn't register thier course maybe you shouldn't go!!!
And I am glad USPA is holding up ratings to make this work the right way.
lt
tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

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I see alot of whining about certain CDs. I had the privilege of taking a few AFF courses when we first became JMs then after having our JM for a period we took the I course. As I remember it we were given the rating with the advice that it was not an end all rating. It was a rating to continue learning. I don't want CDs kissing my ass or worried about hurting my feelings. FUCK feelings. We are given a rating which allows us to teach people how to save their lives. And if they do not, we should have the skills to do it for them. At least down to 2000 ft. The point is when you show up for the AFF course you should have already had your proficiency card filled out, Not signed off with a wave of the pen. Billy Rhodes was my CD and 9 years ago he was very professional. He was not there to give me a backfisted hand job, he was there to evaluate my skills and determine if I was worthy of earning the rating. Just because I paid the fee did not mean I was going to be treated to good feelings and ego boosting psychology. I was there to prove myself. I do not know what the other CDs do, but I have acted as evaluator for Randy Schroeder. The course has changed since I went through it. Is it better today? I will gladly sip a frosty beverage sometime and we can reinvent the skydiving curriculum. Until then realize one thing, I don't want Billy Rhodes swapping spit with me or spooning in bed with me. I want an experienced CD evaluating my flying skills and making sure when I go up for real that I will not drop the ball and plant a student. Just my 2 cents. Now....bring it on.
"whatcha doin with that lawn mower blade?"

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Your words: "...he was there to evaluate my skills and determine if I was worthy of earning the rating. "

As is every CD. How one goes about accomplishing that is the question. I don't buy your STFU and deal with it attitude.

A CD's words: "I'm not here to teach. This is an evaluation course."

Great! So, he's evaluating us on something we know little to nothing about? What's wrong with that picture?

Thanks for your input.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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So, he's evaluating us on something we know little to nothing about? What's wrong with that picture?



What's wrong with arriving at the course prepared, having read everything possible, taught a few FJC's and done numerous practice jumps with experienced AFF I's??

Oh, wait, that'd require effort and time. Nevermind.

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So, he's evaluating us on something we know little to nothing about? What's wrong with that picture?



What's wrong with arriving at the course prepared, having read everything possible, taught a few FJC's and done numerous practice jumps with experienced AFF I's??

Oh, wait, that'd require effort and time. Nevermind.



Why should you know everything in a course before taking a course? Then what's the point of a course? A course is supposed to teach, otherwise it is strictly an AFF evaluation, not an AFF course.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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Why should you know everything in a course before taking a course? Then what's the point of a course? A course is supposed to teach, otherwise it is strictly an AFF evaluation, not an AFF course.



Yeah, now you get the picture. The Pre- course is for preparation if you decide to do it. The AFF I course is for proving that: A. you pay the required fees, and B. you prove your abilities to fly and teach.
Remember that now as soon as you get your logbook stamped from the course director you can teach a FJC. Scarey. This means that an instuctor should have done their footwork and paid their dues in advance. Maybe I can break it down in laymans terms. College. We spend a semester learning information. Right? Then, we have a final. Right? You do not see college professors teach subject matter during the final. Do you? Not any colleges I've attended. But what do I know.
"whatcha doin with that lawn mower blade?"

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I did my AFFI course with Rob Laidlaw from SDU,Rob was the course director and with him were 2 guys helping out,Ernie Long,Chief instructor from Skydive Dallas,and Juan Pablo Iragorry from Lillo;
I just have one thing to say about this people:
EXCELLENT;), and you don't even have to be in their place to take the course,if you are far away,just ring them and they will organize a course for you wherever you are!! You guys ROCK !!

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So, he's evaluating us on something we know little to nothing about? What's wrong with that picture?



What's wrong with arriving at the course prepared, having read everything possible, taught a few FJC's and done numerous practice jumps with experienced AFF I's??

Oh, wait, that'd require effort and time. Nevermind.



Why should you know everything in a course before taking a course? Then what's the point of a course? A course is supposed to teach, otherwise it is strictly an AFF evaluation, not an AFF course.



It depends on the context. An obstacle course serves a different purpose than than a college course, with the former being a testing environment and the latter a learning environment. The way I saw when I got my rating was the pre-course was where we were mostly in learning mode. The course itself was more like an obstacle course.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I honestly hate how AFF learning is presented at this point. In an ideal world it should be more like an apprenticeship program.... go through a course followed by an evaluation, followed by a period of time working with a more experienced AFF instructor to gain additional real life experience with cats A through C jumps prior to release as a full fledged AFF instructor.

AFF course is a misnomer, as there is very minimal actual learning, it's all testing. Obstacle courses (with course = trail or route, not testing) have nothing to do with course = learning or class.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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So, he's evaluating us on something we know little to nothing about? What's wrong with that picture?



What's wrong with arriving at the course prepared, having read everything possible, taught a few FJC's and done numerous practice jumps with experienced AFF I's??

Oh, wait, that'd require effort and time. Nevermind.



I just helped my friend get his rating. He went way beyond that and aced the course.

However, he also had fun and respected his evaluator... There is more to it than being evaluated, especially when a good CD can add value along the way.

I agree with Popsjumper - the other guy's attitude is all wrong. AFF instructors should motivate their students to be confident, knowledgeable, and excited to be a student and want to jump. If the AFF evaluator does not do the same, then no quality example is set.

Someone mentioned a semester of school followed by a final exam, and that the CD is the equivalent of a final... Well, guess what... When my students go for their A and we do a checkoff dive (their final exam), we have crap loads of fun, and I have a bucket of tricks to see if they can remain altitude aware, handle the unexpected, communicate effectively in freefall, and save their life. And, I have even done their "A" checkoff without them knowing it, telling them after they landed that they passed the USPA and my criteria to be an A licenced jumper.

This is skydiving, not war. It should be fun, educational, and rewarding (even when being tested). I stand by my previous post, the week I spent with Bram was one of the most fun and challenging weeks of my life in skydiving. And I know he tested me, not pencil whipped my rating...

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I don't want CDs kissing my ass or worried about hurting my feelings.



So you can't see any space between this and berating, belittling, or humiliating people just because you are in a position of authority?

Respect is a fairly broad area that is between there if you relax and look for it.

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It was a rating to continue learning.



If you aren't allowed to learn in the course shouldn't you say it is a rating to start learning again since he wasn't interested in teaching you anything there. I hope you had some good instructors at your dz to learn from then. I know I did but what about candidates from smaller dzs?

Just a few thoughts on the matter from a guy who spent six years in the Marines. I believe there is a place where your attitude can be helpful but teaching civilians sport skydiving isn't it in my opinion.

Cheers
"... this ain't a Nerf world."

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It's really interesting reading everyone's experiences and opinions. I just took Kips AFF course and earned my rating. "Earned" being the key word. He was most impressive from his course outline, his teaching presentation, his support to the candidates, and honesty and challenges throughout the week. I wanted to go to a course that was known to be challenging so I could feel confident I was worthy of the rating. Kip was no joke! He starts easy on the training jumps to asses your skills and then gets more and more challenging to see how much you can do. He has high standards and creates one hell of an instructor. He is by the book, has an impeccable reputation, and will work with you no matter what. If you're ready, he'll put you to the test, if you aren't, he'll treat it like a "pre-course" and you'll still learn more than you could ever imagine. He was AWESOME!

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Anybody willing to provide input on who is a good AFFI course Director and who might not be?

I would like to have a good one. Billy Rhodes was NOT what I was hoping for. I'm looking for personable, fair, honest, consistent, and available.

Suggestions on a good one?

If you're not comfortable with expressing publicly, a PM will do nicely...confidentiality guaranteed.



First off, congrats on your brand spankin' new rating. Now who'd ya go with? ;)

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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So, he's evaluating us on something we know little to nothing about? What's wrong with that picture?



What's wrong with arriving at the course prepared, having read everything possible, taught a few FJC's and done numerous practice jumps with experienced AFF I's??

Oh, wait, that'd require effort and time. Nevermind.



Sorry you made all those negative assumptions. You missed the boat by a mile.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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