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popsjumper

No Turns greater than 90 degrees below ???

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OK...I got an AFFI that simply goes ballistic up to the point of almost crying when I tell my FJC students that under 1000 feet do not do anything more than 90 degree half turns or braked turns.

He: The SIM says 500 feet! You should teach by-the-book!
Me: I am not and will NEVER give a first-jump student the idea that it's OK to do 360s in the middle of his downwind leg or in the base leg of his landing pattern. I wouldn't even tell an experienced jumper to do that.

Maybe I'm wrong. I am willing to listen to commentary and/or advice on either side of the fence. What do you FJC teachers tell the first-jump students in this regard?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Maybe I'm wrong. I am willing to listen to commentary and/or advice on either side of the fence. What do you FJC teachers tell the first-jump students in this regard?


We teach flat turns from the first jump and on, we even have canopy control skills that teach Slow Flight /Flat turns on every dive flow in the course. That being said one would rarely need to turn more than 90 degrees to avoid and obstacle low to the ground which flat turns are all about. That being said there is something to be said for going by the book and I am more comfortable with 1,000 feet as well. We teach that when you start the pattern all you need to do is 90's unless an avoidance maneuver dictates more than that, and it if does we teach the importance of performing a flat turn. The salient point is that all the instructors are on the same page teaching the same thing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking it slow while learning to pilot a canopy but it is important that all the instructors where you work to be on the same page with the instructional information you convey to your students. Do ya’ll ever have instructors meetings? If you are teaching your course right out of the SIM then yes, it is important for all the JM’s to be on the same page. If not then you should have a detailed curriculum that is standard so all the students are being taught the same thing by all the different instructors.
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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to popsjumper:
So are you talking and 360's or something slightly greater than 90?

I tell FJC students to turn proportional to the need, meaning that if they notice an obstacle very late, not to crank a big turn, but to turn just enough to avoid it.

to everyone:
Any altitudes listed for patterns and "no turns below" type altitudes are "rules of thumb". People seem to like making them hard and fast rules, and that drives ME crazy.

Instructors need to use judgment. Instructors need to teach judgment.

It is perfectly acceptable to tell a really lightweight student under a large parachute that they may make (certain types of) turns lower.

And if you explain why then they will realize this is because of their size, and not go around telling other heavier students that they should do this.

to everyone:
Go jump a lightly loaded canopy and try to fly a pattern at the altitudes suggested by some manual. It hasn't worked very well for me the times I tried it.

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Thanks, Mykel.
Yes, in FJC, I also teach flat turns as well as braked turns - what they are, how to do them and what they are for .

My focus here is on Cat A, AFF Level 1 or any other method very first jump. OK...avoidance manuevers need to be stressed more in my presentation. I'm just opposed to telling them at this stage of their game that, by-the-book, that they are allowed to do anything more than 90s between 1000 and 500 feet...maybe I should put more emphasis on, "Except in the case of emergency collision avoidance." But now I'm seeing a student-canopy hook turn at 50 feet. I guess, in the big scheme of things, that would be better than a collision.

Maybe I'm guilty of erring on the side of safety? I personally think that is a good thing. However, I'm looking to you more experienced guys for guidance here. Particularly why I shouldn't be restricting them to that altitude difference. Maybe the guy has a good point. Maybe I should say, "shouldn't" rather than the stronger "don't"?

All on the same page????
There's no sign saying, "Check Egos at the Door."
I've been fighting for Instructor Meetings for quite a while...maybe I'm being too passive in my insistance.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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OK...I got an AFFI that simply goes ballistic up to the point of almost crying when I tell my FJC students that under 1000 feet do not do anything more than 90 degree half turns or braked turns.

He: The SIM says 500 feet!




http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2008SIM/Section4CatA.htm

Cat A - Section D- Where?
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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OK...I got an AFFI that simply goes ballistic up to the point of almost crying when I tell my FJC students that under 1000 feet do not do anything more than 90 degree half turns or braked turns.

He: The SIM says 500 feet!




http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2008SIM/Section4CatA.htm

Cat A - Section D- Where?



Ummmm, all I notice about how low you are allowed to turn according to this curriculum is -
Section D, Item #2, Subsection E:


e. Small toggle inputs can be used to make minor heading corrections at any point in the canopy flight.
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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>>Instructors need to use judgment. Instructors need to teach judgment.<<

Gary's correct (and the rest of you are scaring me).

Everything in the FJC is taught to the worst case scenario level. You teach a FJC student to not make any major turns below a thousand feet unless they are instructed to do so on the radio. This assures if they have a radio failure, a really bad spot, or an aircraft emergency miles from the DZ they won’t land in turning flight. On obstacle avoidance it’s always nothing more than ninety degrees. And it's why we put them on big canopies so they can land crosswind or even downwind without killing themselves. And if the SIM says a first jump student should be looking at their altimeters at 500-feet they are out of their minds . . .

Something all non-instructors, and sadly, a lot of Instructors never realize is a FJC is exactly that. A course of instruction aimed at getting a non-jumper (and the slowest one in the class) through their first jump safely. First jump students have a limited ability to retain new information so you can't overload them with all the nuances of canopy flight and everything else. I wish we could teach all that but we can't. To do that the FJC would have to be a multi-day affair with the last day being all the stuff we now teach in a single day so it's fresh.

Where the current system is falling down is on the later AFF jumps. Especially at the larger DZs that use multiple AFF JMs. In that situation what can get missed during a student's progression through AFF can be a boatload.

First jump students needed to be trained in a linear fashion to the point they don’t walk into a spinning prop, know what to do in case there is an in-flight emergency, know what to do for all the freefall and canopy emergencies that are possible, and know how to land safely without assistance if it comes to that. Anything else you add into that mix just means a student will spend longer searching for an answer when confronted with a particular problem.

You are teaching each and every first jump student to be able to handle a "Lutz" type occurrence, and while its "nice" if a student could understand the ins and outs of wing loading it's useless information at their level. I've sat through some people's first jump courses where they taught skydiving rather than "how to make a first jump" and it produces overwhelmed and confused students.

In a perfect world the same Instructor would take a single student all the way from first jump through A license. It would be more like learning to fly an airplane where generally you stay with one instructor all the way through. They'd get to know you and you'd get to know them. Tips and tricks could be appropriately be passed on. All those things you learned in a lifetime of jumping us Instructors never get to teach. But instead students get turned over to a Coach that's been jumping a year at the very time they could benefit from our experience the most.

In the end I guess we did follow the concept of "dual instruction" like in piloting, but we corrupted that idea and called it Tandem . . .

NickD :)BASE 194

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Keep it coming guys...I'm getting some very, very useful stuff here. Not talking about the AFFI guy, but but for the students and my teaching methods for them.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I was trying to give good input, but apparently I am scaring an instructor I respect most on this forum.

I will wait for his much more experience to shed better light on the matter…

Sincerely...
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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I believe that a 360 can be usefull over 1000ft for losing altitude

Below 1000ft I don't believe you should restrict canopy traffic - 90 max turn will limit the student to a 180 total range - I really don't see the use for this

A 360 turn eats up around 200ft with student size canopies ... give or take

Why restrict students above 500ft - why is that good?
Have fun!

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I would say nothing more than small corrections below 100ft

How the hell are you supposed to turn on to final if no 90's lower than 500ft? USPA recomends you enter the down wind at 1000ft, and for the retards out there that means that you need to make 2 more 90's.

If I recall the points for the pattern were 1000 for downwind. 500 for crosswind. and 300 for final. But these numbers may very well be wrong.

Edit: I got the USPA BSR pic
Don't hate me 'cause you aint me.

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I'm not an instructor, in fact I made my first jump a relatively short while ago.

Do you really trust a student with a malfunctioning radio during their very first oh-so-overwhelming-jump to have the judgement to determine when a low turn is necessary / survivable /merited?

Just this weekend, a relatively new jumper told me quite happily he did a low 90 because they thought they were venturing too close to a ditch.
I asked to show me how their hands were positioned during the turn. They indicated that one hand was at full flight, the other at hip level.
Then I asked this person how high up they were. They said that when they came out of the turn, they had only just enough time left to flare...
Keeping my face carefully neutral, I told the student to ask the instructor on duty about flat turns.

I'm certain our FJC teaches about different toggle inputs. I'm also certain that not all students (myself included) remembered that when first encountering an unexpected situation.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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...Why restrict students above 500ft - why is that good?



My thinking is that it may keep them from driving all over the sky while in their landing pattern. Everybody going the same direction does its part in preventing collisions. One of my worst fears is seeing a first-jump student spinning a 360 on downwind without clearing airspace...and the potential results.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I would say nothing more than small corrections below 100ft


Agreed

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How the hell are you supposed to turn on to final if no 90's lower than 500ft? USPA recomends you enter the down wind at 1000ft, and for the retards out there that means that you need to make 2 more 90's.


You seemed to have mis-read the post. Please go back and try it again.

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If I recall the points for the pattern were 1000 for downwind. 500 for crosswind. and 300 for final. But these numbers may very well be wrong.

Edit: I got the USPA BSR pic


Then you can see that the SIM says 1000, 600 and 300. and it's "Base", not "crosswind".
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I'm not an instructor, in fact I made my first jump a relatively short while ago.


Thanks for your input. I am looking for guidance from Instructors. I will respond to your comments, though.

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...Do you really trust a student with a malfunctioning radio during their very first oh-so-overwhelming-jump to have the judgement to determine when a low turn is necessary / survivable /merited?


No...and that is my thinking...to do what we can to prevent those scenarios.

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I'm certain our FJC teaches about different toggle inputs. I'm also certain that not all students (myself included) remembered that when first encountering an unexpected situation.


Which may be expected for first-jump students, yes. I wish it was a perfect world but it's pretty much a no-brainer that first-jump students are not going to remember everything they are taught. All we can do is teach them, tell them, make them tell what they were just taught and make them teach US what they were just taught...in their words, do our best to help them "get it" before they jump.


And here I go letting this thread drift....please address the topic at hand..."No Turns greater than 90 degrees below ???"
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I was trying to give good input...



:D:D:D
:D:D:D

Just in case you were thinking along those lines, when I said, "Not talking about the AFFI guy..." I was not talking about you...it's the local AFFI to whom I was referring.

:D:D:D
:D:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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...Why restrict students above 500ft - why is that good?



My thinking is that it may keep them from driving all over the sky while in their landing pattern. Everybody going the same direction does its part in preventing collisions. One of my worst fears is seeing a first-jump student spinning a 360 on downwind without clearing airspace...and the potential results.



Ok ... I see ... why don't you say no more than 180? That way they have 360 range. If they turned on final too high or too short. They can turn around ... and turn back without drifting crosswind too much.

Do you use radio?
Have fun!

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Ok ... I see ... why don't you say no more than 180? That way they have 360 range. If they turned on final too high or too short. They can turn around ... and turn back without drifting crosswind too much.



OK..you're obviously screwing with me. Thanks anyway.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Do you really trust a student with a malfunctioning radio during their very first oh-so-overwhelming-jump to have the judgement to determine when a low turn is necessary / survivable /merited?


Yes, in some situations, all they have to fall back on is their training.
If I do not truat that a student is ready yet, do don't jump yet.

I have experienced this first hand. Someone I taught ground trained and took on her first solo (non-tandem) jump. Lost radio under canopy, got overwhelmed and was flying an erratic pattern, at 100 feet was in a direct line to fly right into a power pole, we, the ground crew, out hearts were all beating hard no doubt. At 70 feet or so she executed a perfect Slow-Flight/Flat-Turn maneuver (75 degrees?) half brakes calmly applied and finished her flare from there a little high, performed a PLF, got up and walked away. We were astonished and I suspect she would not have done such a great job at staying alive without the prior ground training.

For me, there are 2 areas where I deliver an unbalanced percentage of the material in comparison overall and that is EP’s and how to make safe landings in a variety or circumstances, and review those areas at the end review before the jump, then fill in all the gaps as best as we can for the rest of the information. Often times when everything works out we will have cloud cover that green lights should go on for the experienced jumpers, a chance to educate the jumper a quick review about clouds, take them up with the intention of landing with the plane, just they do not know that. At the door from altitude when we check the spot I let them make the call, usually they make the right one, and while we descend (I hate landing in air planes) we have opportunity to discuss the potential for a cypress fire and all that that implies along with a few other things.

Would you (instructors) sacrifice a significant part of your earnings over a two week period to stay on the ground as much as possible to provide sufficient ground training for a particular student in need, then for them go on and succeed… It’s a beautiful thing…

Most Instructors don’t do this for the money (besides, it aint there), it is for the opportunity to do something we love, and how well we do our jobs may have some affect on the outcome of another’s life in the future.

As we suggested earlier about teaching judgment, that is key.
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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Where the current system is falling down is on the later AFF jumps. Especially at the larger DZs that use multiple AFF JMs. In that situation what can get missed during a student's progression through AFF can be a boatload.



This was my biggest frustration during my progression. Over about four months, I did IAD and then PFF jumps with at least seven different instructors. I started feeling like I was missing things, which is when I started picking up the PIMs and reading articles here on this site to fill in the gaps -- most of which, I think, were in canopy control. Eventually I figured out that I should be seeking out just one person on the DZ -- the most experienced instructor (and master rigger) -- for advice and filling in knowledge, and let the hotshot young bucks go back to flying tandems with the cuties.
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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Please keep it on topic.

There are tons of other threads dealing with the quality of AFFIs and the training programs.

This thread is about students making turns greater than 90 degrees below 1000 ft.

Simple.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Our method is similar to AFFI's, we teach flat turns, no 90's below 1000 feet, and as a backstop to the "telling" process, we walk them out to the 1000 foot flag, walk them to the 600' flag, and from there, have them walk through the turn from base to final, hands in position and calling out numbers. In other words, they walk their downwind, base, final before the FJC is over. Students aren't aware they'll have a radio when they're in the classroom. We don't say anything about the radio until they're suiting up for the first jump. We don't want them relying on the radio at all for all the reasons mentioned above.
Following all that up with teaching the student that they are under their own command is pretty important, IMO. I once saw a student completely ignore the radio, turned to base long after the AFFI told him to make his turn, and he ended up hitting a radio antenna. Despite ignoring the radio, he also didn't use his own judgement. He was also on his 6th solo, so he should have been capable of figuring it out regardless. Fortunate to have only broken an arm.

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Oooooo...

"as a backstop to the "telling" process, we walk them out to the 1000 foot flag, walk them to the 600' flag, and from there, have them walk through the turn from base to final, hands in position and calling out numbers. In other words, they walk their downwind, base, final before the FJC is over. '

At first glance, I really like that. I'll put some serious thought into it. Thanks.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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