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docjohn

AFF Student Loses both instructors

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Wouldn't it be easier and safer to have an instructor on the ground with the radio and as soon as the student pulls, they start receiving radio assistence immediately from someone whose full attention are students under canopy that are still on radio assistance?



Yup. It sure would be safer, but that takes an extra person. Of course in the event of a malfunction that radio person can offer assistance right away. That really matters in some situations. Of course that means the person on the radio should be an instructor as well, and radio phraseology should be worked out and standardized in advance.

I think most of us agree drop zones should be placing greater emphasis on canopy control. Ideally, that means a student is well trained prior to the jump, and then supervised by a radio operator who takes notes, and then either does a full canopy debrief, or passed his notes along to the instructor for the canopy debrief. Too often the radio person is just an experienced jumper who gives far to many directions, and then offers little informed feedback. This is certainly an area many drop zones can find room for improvement.

(NOTE: This is a general comment about the state of canopy control education and radio support. I do not have any idea how the DZ discussed in this case handles either.)
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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Wouldn't it be easier and safer to have an instructor on the ground with the radio and as soon as the student pulls, they start receiving radio assistence immediately from someone whose full attention are students under canopy that are still on radio assistance?



That's how it works here. In addition to the AFF instructors, there's a Target Assistant who has a) a radio, b) a big arrow to point them in the right direction and c) a pair of paddles to help them time their flare. The radio is a backup. The TA is in place before the student exits the aircraft.

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having the radio person already on the ground is a new concept to me. How does it work when there are multiple AFF groups on the aircraft, or is this a practice that is mostly done at smaller cessna dzs?

using the paddles intriuges me as well, I'm sure it has been done that way for years, but, how much do those distract the student from learning the visual of the ground coming at them while focusing instead on some paddles?
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
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having the radio person already on the ground is a new concept to me. How does it work when there are multiple AFF groups on the aircraft, or is this a practice that is mostly done at smaller cessna dzs?



We have three different radio freq's, so up to three AFFs can be in the air at once. It's very rare to have all three, but two in the air at once is very common.
Oft times, the chief instructor or DZM is on the radio with them from deployment until the instructor lands. Someone on the ground is always there with the radio however, until the instructor lands, simply in the event that the instructor has a mal or other issue with landing immediately where the radio control is located.

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How does it work when there are multiple AFF groups on the aircraft, or is this a practice that is mostly done at smaller cessna dzs?



No more than two AFF jumpers on a load along with two arrows and two radio channels. Easy. And no, we're not a particularly small DZ - we have three turbines.

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Sorry if this is a thread hijack, but I've been looking at the numbers on my Neptune.

Our exit altitude is 11000ft. It's the highest in the country, and is equalled by 2 other DZ's. Our DZ is 5000ft AMSL and going higher creates hypoxia issues requiring O2, etc.
An AFF L1 begins deployment sequence at 5500ft.
Main side needs to secure the pull by 4000ft.
If they fail, reserve side needs to secure the pull by 3500ft.

Then the AFF I's need separation. We need to be under canopy by 2000ft.

For the life of me, with over 2000 AFF dives, I cannot see a scenario where being open with your student after clearing your airspace and ensuring horizontal separation from the other AFF I and the camera person is even remotely possible.

Our AFF students are on radio, and the duty instructor - who remains on the ground - deals with radio for all AFF students still on double instructor levels, and all SL students prior to PRCP's. If they cannot fly a pattern, they do not pass to single Instructor levels/PRCP's.

The thought that not being open with your student is somehow doing them a dis-service irks me somewhat. I have been doing AFF since 1992, and have not yet had a student "lose" me. If this process of being open with the student is so required, why are our SL students not followed out by a senior jumper, or why are there not 3 AFF instructors, 2 for freefall and 1 for canopy coaching.

I think the efforts to "open with the student" pose far, far more risk to the AFF team than properly training the student to land without assistance prior to embarking on AFF L1. Our radio is not used if the student is responding as trained. We have paddles as a back up should the radio fail.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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...How does it help to pull high with a student and fly with them for landing - what are you going to say "hey student" "follow me!" ?! :-)



Exactly! NOW you're getting it!
Wouldn't it be nice for the confused student to have someone nearby that could guide them in...either to the LZ or to a good alternative landing area? And to assist in case of an off-landing injury???

Some AFFI course directors make a point of this during the AFFI course.

For early Levels adn Categories, how much trouble would it be to have one AFFI buzz down with the radio and one to stay within visible range of the student?

Also, why not have a radio with BOTH AFFIs simply for the off-landing scenario if nothing else?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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For the life of me, with over 2000 AFF dives, I cannot see a scenario where being open with your student after clearing your airspace and ensuring horizontal separation from the other AFF I and the camera person is even remotely possible.

The thought that not being open with your student is somehow doing them a dis-service irks me somewhat.

I think the efforts to "open with the student" pose far, far more risk to the AFF team than properly training the student to land without assistance prior to embarking on AFF L1. Our radio is not used if the student is responding as trained. We have paddles as a back up should the radio fail.


I believe that what is being suggested is for one of the JMs to be open to guide the student in the event of a high altitude opening.
I am not terribly experienced as an instructor only having around 500 actual instructional jumps and I have only had one scenario where the student was opened above 10k, I had to pull them out as it was my only option before loosing the student – it was a really wild ride!
I was the only JM on the dive and buzzed it down to the ground ASAP to get on the radio. The student landed where she was supposed to with MINIMAL radio assistance because the ground training was through and complete. So opening high was not at all necessary and my first priority was to follow the plan, to land and be on radio.
Radios sometimes fail as well, I have that happen a few times but no issues have been created by that so far.

I fail to understand how a “disservice” has been created.
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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For the life of me, with over 2000 AFF dives, I cannot see a scenario where being open with your student after clearing your airspace and ensuring horizontal separation from the other AFF I and the camera person is even remotely possible.

The thought that not being open with your student is somehow doing them a dis-service irks me somewhat.

I think the efforts to "open with the student" pose far, far more risk to the AFF team than properly training the student to land without assistance prior to embarking on AFF L1. Our radio is not used if the student is responding as trained. We have paddles as a back up should the radio fail.


I believe that what is being suggested is for one of the JMs to be open to guide the student in the event of a high altitude opening.
I am not terribly experienced as an instructor only having around 500 actual instructional jumps and I have only had one scenario where the student was opened above 10k, I had to pull them out as it was my only option before loosing the student – it was a really wild ride!
I was the only JM on the dive and buzzed it down to the ground ASAP to get on the radio. The student landed where she was supposed to with MINIMAL radio assistance because the ground training was through and complete. So opening high was not at all necessary and my first priority was to follow the plan, to land and be on radio.
Radios sometimes fail as well, I have that happen a few times but no issues have been created by that so far.

I fail to understand how a “disservice” has been created.


thank you for your post ;)
Have fun!

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...How does it help to pull high with a student and fly with them for landing - what are you going to say "hey student" "follow me!" ?! :-)



Exactly! NOW you're getting it!
Wouldn't it be nice for the confused student to have someone nearby that could guide them in...either to the LZ or to a good alternative landing area? And to assist in case of an off-landing injury???

So you are saying you should be that close you can talk to the student - .... you ride through the opening ... track and pull ... how are you supposed to get back up to the students flying level - for one .... what do you tell them ahead... follow the yellow parachute ... what if they follow somebody else ... do they follow all the way in for landing ... what about staying clear of other traffic ... I guess I see so many obsticales for this ... tell me how does this work?!

Also, why not have a radio with BOTH AFFIs simply for the off-landing scenario if nothing else?

Good Idea!


Have fun!

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Sorry if this is a thread hijack, but I've been looking at the numbers on my Neptune.

Our exit altitude is 11000ft. It's the highest in the country, and is equalled by 2 other DZ's. Our DZ is 5000ft AMSL and going higher creates hypoxia issues requiring O2, etc.
An AFF L1 begins deployment sequence at 5500ft.
Main side needs to secure the pull by 4000ft.
If they fail, reserve side needs to secure the pull by 3500ft.

Then the AFF I's need separation. We need to be under canopy by 2000ft.

For the life of me, with over 2000 AFF dives, I cannot see a scenario where being open with your student after clearing your airspace and ensuring horizontal separation from the other AFF I and the camera person is even remotely possible.

Our AFF students are on radio, and the duty instructor - who remains on the ground - deals with radio for all AFF students still on double instructor levels, and all SL students prior to PRCP's. If they cannot fly a pattern, they do not pass to single Instructor levels/PRCP's.

The thought that not being open with your student is somehow doing them a dis-service irks me somewhat. I have been doing AFF since 1992, and have not yet had a student "lose" me. If this process of being open with the student is so required, why are our SL students not followed out by a senior jumper, or why are there not 3 AFF instructors, 2 for freefall and 1 for canopy coaching.

I think the efforts to "open with the student" pose far, far more risk to the AFF team than properly training the student to land without assistance prior to embarking on AFF L1. Our radio is not used if the student is responding as trained. We have paddles as a back up should the radio fail.

t



thanks for the post
Have fun!

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having the radio person already on the ground is a new concept to me. How does it work when there are multiple AFF groups on the aircraft, or is this a practice that is mostly done at smaller cessna dzs?



The person on the ground talks to all students.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I would like to AFFIs stay up there with the student as much as possible.

By the time the AFFI lands and pulls out the radio, the confused student has usually flown too far away to make it back to the LZ. Now the AFFI on the radio has no way to tell what the student is facing.




I only have done a few hundred AFF jumps, tons of level 1s, in the last year... And not once have I had a student venture off to la-la land.

In the case of a high pull (that started this argument in this thread), even flying a minute or two the wrong way will be recoverable as soon as the AFFI lands. If not recoverable - due to the uppers - it was going to be an out landing anyway.

Maybe I am a good teacher on the ground, or something, because your use of the word "usually" indicates the students are often having problems finding the DZ... But we don't leave the plane on a level 1 unless they have seen the landing area and know what it looks like from altitude.

Are you mixing up the words "possibly" and "usually"? Does your DZ really have this problem?

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Scenario:
Student for one reason or other is under a canopy at 12,000 feet. AFF Instructor takes a minute of freefall and a couple minutes to get to the ground. Meanwhile, the student flies out of radio range.

Students often open the canopy at the end of a jump run. That's already pretty far away much of the time. Add another 2 miles vertical, the person on the ground can hardly even see the student.

One must hope the radios are of high quality and the ground control is on it quick ... if there is ground control. The usable range of a radio, even a 5 mile range radio is not always affective past a mile or so.

I have opened with the student at high altitudes. It has come in handy. A radio is in my pocket on AFF jumps. I've used it in the air, and on the ground and see no reason not to carry it and use it under canopy if necessary.

To the original post. Tremendous amount of skill shown in that video. Interesting.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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To the original post. Tremendous amount of skill shown in that video. Interesting.



Tremendous?

Are you kidding me?!?! WTF???

I believe the word you are looking for is stupendous!
Miraculous!
Unfuckingbelievable!!!
Godlike!!!!!
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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Scenario:
Student for one reason or other is under a canopy at 12,000 feet. AFF Instructor takes a minute of freefall and a couple minutes to get to the ground. Meanwhile, the student flies out of radio range.

.



Never before had this crossed my mind.
Thank you for bringing it up.

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having the radio person already on the ground is a new concept to me. How does it work when there are multiple AFF groups on the aircraft, or is this a practice that is mostly done at smaller cessna dzs?



The person on the ground talks to all students.



This was the practice at the DZ where I went through AFF. They had an Otter. The DZO would be on the ground and talk all the students in on the same frequency. Hey would assign us numbers..."Jumper #1" etc. I'm not sure this is the best practice, but I know it is done.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

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having the radio person already on the ground is a new concept to me. How does it work when there are multiple AFF groups on the aircraft, or is this a practice that is mostly done at smaller cessna dzs?



The person on the ground talks to all students.



This was the practice at the DZ where I went through AFF. They had an Otter. The DZO would be on the ground and talk all the students in on the same frequency. Hey would assign us numbers..."Jumper #1" etc. I'm not sure this is the best practice, but I know it is done.



We do it by canopy color. Care is taken to ensure that two students don't go up with the same color canopy at the same time.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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We do it by canopy color. Care is taken to ensure that two students don't go up with the same color canopy at the same time.



Ever have a color blind student?

I don't think there is anything wrong addressing each student by their first name while they are under canopy.


j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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...Are you mixing up the words "possibly" and "usually"? Does your DZ really have this problem?



Well, Tdog...the real keyword is "confused". Confused students suffer many issues, not just finding the DZ. But to answer your specific questions, yes, "possibly" would be a better choice of words and no, we don't have a major problem with those events at this DZ although it has happened. The question is not IF, but WHEN.

I'm happy that you haven't had the problem yet, keyword "yet", and wish you continued smooth sailing.

I am concerned with the event that will happen sooner or later...what then? Confused student...radio not working or garbled...off-landing with hazards.

Do I worry too much for students? Am I being TOO conservative when it comes to students safety?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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