AFF Student Loses both instructors

[JoosVos 0]

Hi there - I'm not sure if I agree - if a radio is used. I try to land ASAP .... that way I can help (with a radio)
The other 'I' could pull high I guess.

Have fun!

[voodew1 0]

I wear the radio in a modified cypres pouch on my chest strap and very regularly help students find the DZ after opening if they might be flying the wrong direction (while I am under canopy)-- in case of a high pull or premy I would pull and talk them in to following me towards the DZ ---

I do fly a velo loaded normally for that canopy and would out run the student without a doubt ---- but I like my Velo and just because I am teaching AFF doesn't mean I have to jump a Navigator 300 so I can float around with a student -- let be real.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Tonto 1]

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At our DZ, we agree that one instructor will 'fly' (usually reserve side), the other instructor will 'ride'

We used this in the 90's until a dive went to bits and both instructors "flew" expecting the other to "ride."

After that we switched to a hard Reserve flies and main stays rule, and we've had no issues since.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tombuch 0]

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We used this in the 90's until a dive went to bits and both instructors "flew" expecting the other to "ride."

After that we switched to a hard Reserve flies and main stays rule, and we've had no issues since.

So see, whatever. The important thing is to have a plan, and to communicate that plan so everybody works together. It's pretty easy when the staff is small and stable. It gets tougher when the DZ is large with full time and part time staff, and even harder if there are visiting instructors. But hey, we all know how to talk, and most of us know how to listen, so if there are any doubts, it should be pretty simple to do a quick brief before the skydive. That's an important part of the job that the student will never see.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[rehmwa 2]

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I like my Velo ..... teaching AFF doesn't mean I have to ..... float around with a student -- let be real.

Honesty, at least.

Is it your job, or is it your play day? Let's be real.

Different scenario - if you had a student with KNOWN navigation skills, would you volunteer to go up with that Navigator on every AFF jump with him until he learns from following you, in order to provide instruction on "what he needs" - or is that swoop just more important, or making the turn, or whatever.

(The only legit answer to this one I've seen so far was that the fitting gear made one AFFI more comfortable with his ability to stay with his responsibility.)

I can see how jumping the "fun canopy" might make sense to the 'weekend' AFFI. But they should then completely avoid taking a student that needs this kind of help.

But for the AFFI that does it full time, I'd think using whatever equipment helps the student learn is what should be used (if that means use the velo to make more loads and get the next student up? so be it. if that means using the Navigator to provide additional instruction? so be it.) It's the job, not the play.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Tonto 1]

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I can see how jumping the "fun canopy" might make sense to the 'weekend' AFFI. But they should then completely avoid taking a student that needs this kind of help.

I'm a "weekend" AFF I, but I think your differentiation places the student at risk. I'm currently doing 250+ AFF dives a year and have been since 2002. Why should the fact that I have a full time job let me do worse AFF?

As for the "opening with the student" debate, I think it depends on the consequences of an out landing, landing hazards, etc. I've attached a pic of an AFF exit with a student. The nearest hazard to the DZ is about a mile away. It's the town we jump near. The rest is open veld. Not even a single tree. Out landings have little consequence here.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rehmwa 2]

"your differentiation places the student at risk"

That's not what I mean. (I agree that opening with the student is a decision based on the conditions and the student. But certainly it's an option and if done, then doing it has to be effective - whatever is needed.)

so clarification -

for the case of a student that would benefit from an AFFI under canopy near him......

1 - The "weekend" AFFI is doing it voluntarily. If they feel the need to combine their fun with the work, they have that option. If they insist that "no matter what, they'll jump their velo", then they are unwilling to do what is needed for student A, then in the interest of student A, they let someone else do that jump and move on to Student B. It puts the student as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd priority.

The "full time" AFFI is doing it for work. They have to take Student A. So that means everything is put aside for the sake of the student. No matter what. Even canopy selection for the AFFI.

How does that put the student at risk? (I'm saying that an AFFI that is unWILLing, or unABLE, to handle this teaching jump, should recognize it and pull themselves off. For whatever reason. And that includes any aspect of the jump, not just the freefall.)


I'm not saying open with the student every single time. I'm saying that an instructor has to put aside their ego and do whatever it takes to teach the student. If that means opening with the student, then so be it. If one opens with the student, then might mean jumping a compatible canopy instead of the velo. It's does a disservice to the student to do one and not both.

(I don't think the openness of the landing area matters either. If Tonto, as the instructor, thought Marcelle would learn better if, on a jump or two, Tonto flies nearby and guides Marcelle through the landing pattern, I'm certain you'd choose the best canopy to do that job. I've read your posts, you are that kind of thoughtful instructor)

I think that is "getting real" and much better than jumping with that student and thinking that every single job is over with once the student dumps.



edit: honestly, I think this is a moot point. If a student is so poor under canopy as to require an escort, then taking them on an instructional tandem with the sole purpose to be canopy flight instruction would be much more effective.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JoosVos 0]

rehmwa -

are you an aff I?

Have fun!

[rehmwa 2]

Nope - I don't want my fun to become my work. I come here to flesh out discussions as I think this forum is one where I can learn a ton. Sometimes you take a position to draw out ideas.

Care to discuss the content of the post, or is that all you need to know?

really, I just think there are a ton of potential situational scenarios out there. And I agree with TomB's post - if you are instructing, then the entire commit is about the student.

I do know that when I personally coach a newbie, and there's a canopy aspect to it, I'll switch to my CrW rig if I think it's necessary.

(you only trump when it's a matter of saving your own life - you don't owe that to the student other than making sure your skills are good enough that you try to eliminate that choice)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shermanator 3]

I am not an instructor , not do i have close jump numbers to be one *end disclaimer*


I'm curious, since the debate seems to be 'what is best for the student', my question is... Can an instructor better help and debrief canopy flight of the student while on the ground watching with full attention, or while flying their own canopy, watching for hazrds, and watchingthe student all at once. .. I'm sure this depends on a situational thing, person to person, but I'm curious what the thoughts are.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[JoosVos 0]

No - doesn't matter - was just wondering

I don't think you should 'stay up with a student' - I believe you can be more of a help on the ground - when you use a radio - if the case is that the student needs to see canopies to find his/her way back to the dz they can still do so - even if the I lands a lot sooner

I haven't seen anybody jump different gear on AFF jumps yet - not saying nobody does.

Thanks for the post.

Have fun!

[popsjumper 2]

I would like to AFFIs stay up there with the student as much as possible.

By the time the AFFI lands and pulls out the radio, the confused student has usually flown too far away to make it back to the LZ. Now the AFFI on the radio has no way to tell what the student is facing.

Another scenario:
The AFFIs have a canopies that can make it back easily from a long spot. The student can't make it and has to land off...alone, and possibly hurt.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JoosVos 0]

maybe pull high - fly up to them - and drag 'm to the landing area by the pilot chute.... sounds good

or

pull high - float - put both feet in the center A's or students canopy and help him find the dropzone flying around a two-stack?

OR

'I' lands - talks to student via radio - meanwhile base-station is already talking to student while 'I' is on the way down - if all else fails student can SEE where the other parachutes are going and landing

Have fun!

[labrys 0]

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I wear the radio in a modified cypres pouch on my chest strap

The mechanics of this really elude me.

Owned by Remi #?

[DSE 3]

New Cypres come in small zipper bags just a bit bigger than an iPod. Good for storing the Cypres parts, iPod, or other small items, and apparently good for carrying a radio on a chest strap.

[labrys 0]

Ah... I was visualizing the clear plastic window on the rig as the "pouch". Makes sense now, thanks.

Owned by Remi #?

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Whooooooolllllly Shit!!!! That was JUICY!

Damn, I had to watch it twice. I wonder what went wrong??? Double thumbs up to the student. It didn't look like she was arched much after the RJM released but managed to get belly to Earth before pulling. She did a fantastic job!!!! I wonder if it was her first skydive or had she had any other jumps under her belt?

Edited: Just read entire thread... I guess this student did have many jumps. (Thank goodness)

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[wildfan75 1]

Question...Wouldn't some of these issues be solved if instead of an instructor trying to radio a student from the air while trying to fly their canopy, or having to wait until the instructor is on the ground to start giving radio assistance...

Wouldn't it be easier and safer to have an instructor on the ground with the radio and as soon as the student pulls, they start receiving radio assistence immediately from someone whose full attention are students under canopy that are still on radio assistance?

[popsjumper 2]

Some DZs do that. From my observations, most don't - they just have 1 radio with the AFFI.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[slotperfect 7]

For all of our Cat A/B jumps, one person talks to them on the radio from the ground. 95% of the time that's the School Owner/Chief Instructor. One of the two AFFI's also carries a radio so he can help with radio guidance in the event of an off DZ landing.

Arrive Safely

John

[popsjumper 2]

Sorry to see that:

1) you apparently assume that all goes well on every student jump.
2) you seem to think that all DZs have a "base station" operating.
3) you apparently have little concern for students' general welfare.
4) you missed the reference to "confused" students.

You post relates nothing that would contradict any of those line items.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AHoyThere 0]

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I wonder if it was her first skydive or had she had any other jumps under her belt?

Edited: Just read entire thread... I guess this student did have many jumps. (Thank goodness)

The posted video was of Jump #3 for her.
She did tandem #1 two years earlier. Tandem #2 earlier this summer.
Then the AFF level 1 in the video. AFTER that AFF-1, she proceeded to graduate and since then has made about 50 more jumps this summer.

[JoosVos 0]

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Sorry to see that:

1) you apparently assume that all goes well on every student jump.
2) you seem to think that all DZs have a "base station" operating.
3) you apparently have little concern for students' general welfare.
4) you missed the reference to "confused" students.


You post relates nothing that would contradict any of those line items.

see above

You know an awful lot about me I guess. How does it help to pull high with a student and fly with them for landing - what are you going to say "hey student" "follow me!" ?! :-)

Have fun!

[slotperfect 7]

For everyone: challenging each other to learn more about what policies, procedures, or training best fits your DZ/school's way of doing business is great stuff. When it becomes personal and dirt starts to fly, the benefit and the objectivity go away.

Please keep it civil.

Thanks,

Arrive Safely

John

[Fast 0]

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For all of our Cat A/B jumps, one person talks to them on the radio from the ground. 95% of the time that's the School Owner/Chief Instructor. One of the two AFFI's also carries a radio so he can help with radio guidance in the event of an off DZ landing.

My dz pretty much has a person on the ground doing radio for all AFF jumps. This solves most of the problems. The student can see where all the canopies are landing (other jumpers, tandems, Is) and that clues them into where the landing area is if they choose to not hear the radio.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka