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toronto_bill

Handicam Incidents? Have one? heard of one?

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I think 500 tandem min before wearing a glove cam and then getting a very thorough brief in how to use one.


Since modern handcams can be lighter and smaller than (analogue) altimeters and no one has ever seen an issue with TI's wearing that on the back of their left hand I find that exaggerated. Sure, getting carried away with aiming for the best shot can get you side spinning drogue side down seconds after exit but it is no more rocket science than the tandemjump itself. At least, with go-pro's (in a glove, not a case), contours and the likes.

(Classic cams like Sony PC are a different beast of course...)

After all, it is much more a mental thing, like 'don't think about elephants' than a technical issue. I think it should be part of the TI's training, just to make sure that all the possible issues are covered. With the right tool for the job (small, lightweight, wide-angle, one-click-operation, 'unsnaggable') and the right briefing (forget from exit till drogue throw, forget during opening / emergency, forget from 20 seconds prior to landing) it may be a lot smarter to train TI's from the get-go when they are about to get their rating and make a few more training jumps with an examiner who has like +500 handcam tandems and perhaps always carry the handcam when making the required familiarization jumps with trained skydivers.

This has two advantages:
1. The obvious - the TI is more versatile and brings the skills the market requires nowadays
2. The TI is not 'left alone' when he tries to re-invent the wheel but instead will be trained from the get go by someone who knows what is real and what is not in terms of increased danger.

In fact, the original poster illustrates this point when he asks about additional dangers and specifically seems to worry about interference with emergencies (no more than a big altimeter on the left hand) and fears several non-issues, yet doesn't speak of the real danger which is designating one limb for 'stable camera platform right in the passengers face' when all four limbs should be working exclusively to get the tandempair 'belly towards wind & under drogue'.

If we think tandemjumping deserves specific training then why not build 'handcam jumping' into the training program? (Like f.i. make five solo jumps with the glove + cam before starting your TI training...)

Yes, it may be true that several fatal tandem jumps had handcam as a common denominator, but like any other skill it can be teached. My idea is to do the teaching incorporated in the total package. Makes much more sense.

My $ 0,02

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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AaronComp

Saw a few issues with toggle, never had issues myself, everything I do now is very very different from my past, so its hard to talk about. When I first was learning filming the student through landing, I was like a little weird, but got the hang of it, trying to sell a multi stealth ai v pack comes with every death this aviation set has brought the planet. Im not making a habit of hunting for cam deaths but fuk ,, the world remember s sht,, the more you study the science of the eye and the brain the faster you'll be able to unplug the issue as things are set in motion you remove those negative things from the equation and see what's left to work with.Smooth is not sharp but a sharp picture is not a command to cut something. Are we clear?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_DEpf0hSc
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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I've had three cutaways with a hand cam (one particularly gnarly) and have never had an issue. Most of the designs out there and now the one I've started building are so low profile that an altimeter would create the same snag hazard.
Dude..what the hell is on your head?

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now the one I've started building are so low profile that an altimeter would create the same snag hazard.



Good point...

when this thread was started, people were using PC1000 and HC cameras for handcam...

Now gopro is common. Some go pro handcam set ups are more snag happy than older style and some are very snagproof.


but as Toronto_bill says, an altimeter can pose just as much if a snag hazard.

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To get back on topic... If there haven't been any incidents, and the likely hood of incidents are low, let's address a couple of questions;

Whats the real concern here?
Are all the precautions really necessary?
Should manufacturers and USPA consider lowering the jump number requirements for using hand cams?
The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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Deisel

To get back on topic... If there haven't been any incidents, and the likely hood of incidents are low, let's address a couple of questions;

Whats the real concern here?
Are all the precautions really necessary?
Should manufacturers and USPA consider lowering the jump number requirements for using hand cams?



............................................................................

No!
USPA shouold nt lower pre-levels before jumping hand-cam.
New TIs need a least 100 tandem jumps - to burn basic survival skills into longer-term memory - before adding any more gadgets (e.g. cameras).

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toronto_bill

We are going to start doing handicam video for tandems, and I wonder about the incident record so far. Anyone hear about any handicam cutaways? Or tense moments without a cutaway system?

Some Video guys dont have cutaways on their helmets, but thats their decision. A TI has another person to consider...the passenger. So I see having a glove with a cutaway as almost mandatory.

Another point is, do you have a pilot chute for the camera? I expect no one does..but I have been surprised endlessly by what people do and don't do.



They are a student not a passenger!

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Some Video guys dont have cutaways on their helmets, but thats their decision. A TI has another person to consider...the passenger. So I see having a glove with a cutaway as alm1) Experiost mandatory.***


They are a student not a passenger!

1) Experience has not shown a need for a cutaway system for tandem handcam gloves, and I have never seen one.

2) When they ride with me they are mostly passengers. Almost all bucket list types. I may teach them something, but I'm not dishonest enough to tell myself they are students.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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riggerrob

***To get back on topic... If there haven't been any incidents, and the likely hood of incidents are low, let's address a couple of questions;

Whats the real concern here?
Are all the precautions really necessary?
Should manufacturers and USPA consider lowering the jump number requirements for using hand cams?



............................................................................

No!
USPA shouold nt lower pre-levels before jumping hand-cam.
New TIs need a least 100 tandem jumps - to burn basic survival skills into longer-term memory - before adding any more gadgets (e.g. cameras).


There is a LOT of learning going on on those first 100 jumps.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk



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Some Video guys dont have cutaways on their helmets, but thats their decision. A TI has another person to consider...the passenger. So I see having a glove with a cutaway as alm1) Experiost mandatory.***


They are a student not a passenger!



1) Experience has not shown a need for a cutaway system for tandem handcam gloves, and I have never seen one.

2) When they ride with me they are mostly passengers. Almost all bucket list types. I may teach them something, but I'm not dishonest enough to tell myself they are students.

dont take my word for it, i didnt invent tandem parachute jumping. But maybe you will take bill booths word on it, maybe even if you have a sigma rating? This is kinda sad if you didnt know that and have a tandem rating. "A tandem jump is not a carnival ride. Because your performance (the students) will affect the outcome of the jump, you are a STUDENT, not just a passenger.

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We have been flying handicams for about 4 years now. If you are a tandem master and you routinely bounce drougues or bridles off of any part of your body or your students extremities here is some advice.
Go get remedial training from an I/E. Throwing a drogue unstable is not recommended and if you routinely do this, then these are grounds to have your tandem rating pulled. If you are a good quality tandem instructor and doing what you were trained to do and operating the tandem system in the manner that it was designed to operate, then you too will have tremendous results while using a handicam in a safe and professional manner.
If you are afraid to use one, PRACTICE with a glove only, with no cameras on first and foremost. Yes, it can be a distraction at first. Practice will make perfect.
My instructors were not happy in the beginning with the idea, however they love it now! Their only problem is having all of that extra money in their pockets.....

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RickH

We have been flying handicams for about 4 years now. If you are a tandem master and you routinely bounce drougues or bridles off of any part of your body or your students extremities here is some advice.
Go get remedial training from an I/E. Throwing a drogue unstable is not recommended and if you routinely do this, then these are grounds to have your tandem rating pulled. If you are a good quality tandem instructor and doing what you were trained to do and operating the tandem system in the manner that it was designed to operate, then you too will have tremendous results while using a handicam in a safe and professional manner.
If you are afraid to use one, PRACTICE with a glove only, with no cameras on first and foremost. Yes, it can be a distraction at first. Practice will make perfect.
My instructors were not happy in the beginning with the idea, however they love it now! Their only problem is having all of that extra money in their pockets.....



I agree, i know a few TI who say its a distraction and dont wear one. I myself have no problem with making two paid jumps for every one. i also have not encountered any problem with it. for the most part your just holding your hand out there, just like you do anyway. Making sure to get the right angle of course. I do however believe and did follow the 200 tandem jumps before putting one on. But for the life of me dont see why a few TI who also instruct for a living, dont want to double their income.

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gowlerk



Quote

Some Video guys dont have cutaways on their helmets, but thats their decision. A TI has another person to consider...the passenger. So I see having a glove with a cutaway as alm1) Experiost mandatory.***


They are a student not a passenger!



1) Experience has not shown a need for a cutaway system for tandem handcam gloves, and I have never seen one.

2) When they ride with me they are mostly passengers. Almost all bucket list types. I may teach them something, but I'm not dishonest enough to tell myself they are students.

The are passengers only because you treat them like one.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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BMFin

***

The are passengers only because you treat them like one.



And because they want to be treated as such.

I don't really care if they have a preconceived notion that they want to be treated as passengers on an amusement park ride.

To begin with they only want that because a majority of them don't understand that it can be instructional and interactive, and that they play a key role in the outcome of the jump.

All of my students get a full training, including getting on a creeper, unless I am turning a back to back and have to get what ever training they received from someone else.

The only area I pull back off a little is having first time jump students pull, mainly because I have found that they can get really fixated on it, to the point of not focusing on the overall experience. With a 182 the free fall time isn't copious, and I have had first jump students bury their face in their altimeter the entire free fall instead of taking it all in.

They all fly the canopy for most of the jump. Why wouldn't you, hello easier job! Work smarter not harder?

And all of it takes very little effort on the ground, and frankly I like my training shtick it is a little performance that I get to do.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I do most of those things as well, but they are still mostly passengers. Go look at the advertising your DZ does to attract tandems. They advertise rides, not lessons.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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How do you know how he treats them? Just calling them a "student" doesnt make it so.
I happen to agree with Gow. It's ridiculous to call these one time tandem riders students. However, when I train a tandem I always show them all of the components of the rig, I show them how it works and why. I go over airplane emergencies, I inform them how we spot, I give them an altimeter and train them to pull. I inform them on freefall skills, how to steer, control and flare the canopy.
And then there is Doug, he will self righteously exclaim "they are students not passengers" and yet he doesn't even teach them to pull the parachute! He says he puts them on the creeper...unless, of course, he doesnt in which case they get"whatever" training they get. I teach AFF. Sometimes others do parts of the training. But I always make sure they get complete training every single time. If the tandems were students how could you put them up without all of the training every time? Doug doesn't. And that's because they arn't really students.
Being on the Internet and hautily calling them Students and feeling superior doesn't make them students. When it comes to being a good Tandem Master the proof is in the pudding no matter what you call them.

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I'm sure Rover is just sharing some of the "inside" talk that goes on. We are all professionals who want to give people an experience to remember and hopefully impart some knowledge on the way. My tendency is to impart more knowledge to those who are interested and less to those who aren't. Both can be a lot of fun, or not.

It is good to take the attitude that they are students, and I call myself a TI, not a TM. I just find it too cynical to pretend that most of them are there to learn. Or perhaps it is I who am too cynical. Either way Doug and Rover and I are all the others are doing their best to deliver a safe quality product to the consumer.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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ShotterMG


And then there is Doug, he will self righteously exclaim "they are students not passengers" and yet he doesn't even teach them to pull the parachute!



That is nice. :D I wasn't trying to be self righteous.

Maybe we can all agree that there is a pretty wide spectrum of the type of training that students can receive.

On one side you can take your student, harness them up, and take them on the jump without teaching them a single thing about skydiving, or the jump. They get rush, but they didn't invest a single thing in their jump other than the cash and their time.

On the other side you can put them through an abbreviated ground school, give them learning objectives, have them pull, have them fly the canopy all the way to the ground.

In between there is a whole bunch of variety depending on how much effort the instructor wants to invest, and what the working conditions will allow.

To me being a student means you learn something. I try to explain, show, and practice body flight with my students. I explain how canopy flight works, why, and I have them participate. I show them the gear. I talk to them about progressing in the sport, and all the different things you can do in skydiving.

You want to say they aren't students because I don't have them all pull all I can say is don't really give a shit! I am happy with the way I interact and train my students. They enjoy their jump, and the leave the drop zone with more knowledge about skydiving than then showed up with.

I am going to stick with my opinion that they are students because I have an objective as an instructor to teach them something about skydiving.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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toolbox

I have over 3000 handycam tandems and have had over 24 chops while wearing the camera (in las vegas) and it has not been any problem at all.
It actually makes for some cool footage.



You realize that is one chop every 125 jumps?!?!
You should be nicer to your packers.....

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