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FJC Malfunction Video

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I understand how the world works today . I don't need a lecture on that. . This video is by far from being done and all we are trying to do is improve what material my AFFI has to teach with . We are not going to put this on the market for sale or anything . If you have suggestions on how to make it better then great. If it makes you feel better in giving me a lectures on how we should go back to using flash card instead of keeping up with the time thats fine too . At least we are trying to make the sport we all love better and not sitting at a computer tearing apart someone work for doing so . AGAIN thank you for your comments :)
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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And the inustry needs individuals like you who are trying to make it better, thank you for that, really.

"sitting at a computer tearing apart someones work"
Is exactly how to make productions better, like I said earlier, hang your ego at the door and take suggestions in stride with your own desire to improve what you have started.
You are taking peoples suggestions as an attack on your efforts, do not feel that way, the sooner you change that attitude the better for you and your endeavors and until you learn to take the sugestions of those who are qualified to give said opinions you are going to spin your wheels in a whirlwind of frustration.
If you really don't want anyones suggestions, then do not ask and that is exactly what you are doing by posting any information whatsoever in a public forum.
The downside of that will be a lack of growth that you seem to be eager to acquire. Others as well as myself gave you a lot of positive pointers, sharing with you our many years of experience and asking nothing in return, that is no reason to feel anything less than fortunate that you have people willing to assist you.

Makng this production, if it is used or not (and don't unless you are willing to take on the legal responsibility) is a springboard for you to better your skills that will help you down the road in more ways than you can imagine, so hang in there...

Legally speaking:
It does not matter if you are doing this work for free, taking it to market or whatever, the fact is that if a student dies and watcing your training video was part of their training, you will be summoned to court and sued along with the other JM's, the DZO/DZM/packers/riggers/kndergarden teacher, the companies who designed the gear, hell, proably even the grounds keepers (although we all know it is the DZ staff mowing the lawn ;)), hell, if the lawyer reads these forums it is likely that everyone posting in response to your inquiries will get letters in the mail to show up at court as well. Laywers are scumbags, thorough scumbags, but scumbags nontheless - watcha gonna do :P?

There is a lot of liability involved, like it or not...

And there seems to be a lot of inividuals willing to share their experience with you, like it or not...
-

-
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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I understand how the world works today . I don't need a lecture on that. . This video is by far from being done and all we are trying to do is improve what material my AFFI has to teach with . We are not going to put this on the market for sale or anything . If you have suggestions on how to make it better then great. If it makes you feel better in giving me a lectures on how we should go back to using flash card instead of keeping up with the time thats fine too . At least we are trying to make the sport we all love better and not sitting at a computer tearing apart someone work for doing so . AGAIN thank you for your comments :)



I think you do not understand the difference between passive and active learning.
It does not matter whether you use flashcards or some image projected from a DVD or computer to show a jumper in a hanging harness 'this is what you have' - and asking 'show me what you will do?'
The plain simple fact is that when you give these pictures to someone and they respond by operating or pulling handles appropriately, they will learn better and faster than just watching a passive video presentation and nodding in agreement.

There is no reputable skydiving school that says 'here watch this and read this' and then takes someone up on a jump.
They need to see the student execute the proper procedures (more than once) to be convinced that they have learned what to do.

You need to focus more on Trial and Practice than Explanation and Demonstration.
E&D is easy. It's getting the student to do the T&P correctly that is the hard part.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Thank you and I do respect what everyone is saying here . In your earlier post you said that you should look at the positives and work with them when teaching a student .Most of the post are negative . All I am saying is give me some comments on how to make it better not tell me legal stuff . I understand all that .That was the reason in putting it on this site . To get suggestions from AFFI's on what they would like to see in it and what they are using now to teach . There really is no ego here . I just feel like everyone is say that I shouldnt bother thats all . I think something like this could be very helpful if done right
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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I understand how the world works today . I don't need a lecture on that. . This video is by far from being done and all we are trying to do is improve what material my AFFI has to teach with . We are not going to put this on the market for sale or anything . If you have suggestions on how to make it better then great. If it makes you feel better in giving me a lectures on how we should go back to using flash card instead of keeping up with the time thats fine too . At least we are trying to make the sport we all love better and not sitting at a computer tearing apart someone work for doing so . AGAIN thank you for your comments :)



I think you do not understand the difference between passive and active learning.
It does not matter whether you use flashcards or some image projected from a DVD or computer to show a jumper in a hanging harness 'this is what you have' - and asking 'what will you do?'
The plain simple fact is that when you give these pictures to someone and they respond by operating or pulling handles appropriately, they will learn better and faster than just watching a passive video presentation and nodding in agreement.

There is no reputable skydiving school that says 'here watch this and read this' and then takes someone up on a jump.
They need to see the student execute the proper procedures (more than once) to be convinced that they have learned what to do.

You need to focus more on Trial and Practice than Explanation and Demonstration.
E&D is easy. It's getting the student to do the T&P correctly that is the hard part.

.



I think you are the one that doesnt under stand . I am not saying just put a video in and then go jump out of a plane at all . What we are trying to do is put a video together so as you go threw the jump class you can watch a clip of video then teach what is on the video ( by using harness ect. ) Thats what we are trying to do
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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First, I was speaking to Mykel.
Second, no one lectured, but provided commentary.
Third, this is what I do for a living, 24/7. It's not a sideline.
Fourth, there are a lot of elementals missing from your vid. If you "understand how the world works" then you wouldn't be violating multiple copyrights, as one small example.
Finally, you may not comprehend it, but in creating a product that could contain such flaws only serves to draw negative attention to our sport should someone be harmed as a result of the information and/or it's presentation.

When creating a training scenario, you MUST consider all potential interpretations of your content. You don't know if the person watching is a moron or a genius, challenged or gifted. But you MUST create for all those potential viewers, language must be carefully chosen to clearly explain all visual content and the potential ramifications of various alternative actions. Simply saying "you'll die if you don't do XXX" doesn't work.
I applaud your effort, but cannot applaud not the content. It's amateur in presentation at best, from what little I've seen Were it easy to create this content, it would have been done in full long ago by skydiving instructors far better than you or I. There are incredible video talents and instructor talents in the skydiving world today; why do you suppose they haven't come up with a cohesive replacement for face to face FJC? Because of liability, because a video can't read the comprehension on the face of the student and slow down the educational process, and because a video can't see that the student is overwhelmed.
FJC by it's very nature is designed to give the student exactly what they need to survive the first jump, and subsequent student jumps. TMI/Too Much Information is just as deadly as not enough information.
As far as specific criticisms, AFF I's have given you strong feedback; what you choose to do with it will define what happens next.

It sucks to have people criticize your efforts; been there all my life and deal with it every day. But the reality is that some efforts are well-intended yet fatally flawed from the first execution. One mark of a professional is realizing at some point, and being able to walk away from heartfelt motivation and excitement to the next project or experience.

I'm sorry you see this as criticism vs helpful information. No offense is meant by my words; consider it the experience of someone that works full-time in the production field.

But apparently you already know all that you need to know.[:/]
Good luck with your project.

[edited to add:]I think something like this could be very helpful if done right

Of course this is correct. Problem is, you're not doing it "right" based on what feedback you're receiving.
Aside from everything else, why are you using copyrighted content in a commercial video?>:(

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All I have to say is Blue skies and I am trying to make it as best as possible . Its only bin two weeks that we have bin working on it and I know it shows . Again the only reason I put it on SDM's was so my AFFI could see what footage I had so far . And as far as copy rights I clealy state that It was material taken from that web site . I am not reselling anything . As far as I know when you put a video on a public web site its there for the taking . I could be wrong . God knows I have bin in the past . Wow I guess I had more then one thing to say
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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Most of the post are negative .

I just feel like everyone is say that I shouldnt bother thats all .

I think something like this could be very helpful if done right



I am not reading into "negativity" at all.
Everything I am seeing is quite positive, and if you begin to take on a differrent perspective you will find growth in that.
Seeing mostly negativity means that your ego has not been removed from the situation.
Believe me, it is hard to do but when you find the way for you to do that you will benifit from it greatly...

Something like video training material can be very helpful, you are totally correct, even more so when you say "if done right". That is the difficult bit...

I have been encouraging you to continue your efforts (not necessilary to use them on students) but trying to get you to unerstand that "getting it done right" requires a lot of effort and study. A LOT...

The legal issues we are advising you of is something you must consider, and it is sort of a way of covering my ass too, like the disclamer of saying "(not necessilary to use them on students)".
So if I find myself in front of the judge I can say -
See there?
I told him not to use this material on students!


Everything we do as instructors has to be done in a manner that can be explained in a courtroom. A lot of people do not realize the legal ramifications of being a teacher of skydiving or being even in the slightest way assiciated with such a thing.
It is serious stuff, and I have been taught to cover my ass in every way and knowing the material I am teaching is a part of that.
_
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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AFFI,

After reading some of this back and forth comments, I have a question that might help inspire thoughts...

We have a few malfunction videos at our disposal...

How I use it... As the video is playing, I ask the question... "What would you do". For 90% of the shots, they say, "cutaway and deploy reserve."

I really don't care if a student knows a line over vs a tension knot... It is either "there, square, and steerable" or not...

I teach this as: "You are going to ask three questions about this canopy. The first is a very simple yes or no. Is it there? If not you must... The second is, is it square and looking like a canopy? Here you might have some "almosts", like line twists, slider up, or closed end cells that we will try to fix. If you can't fix by your decision altitude, then you must... Now that we have done our two first visual inspections and know it flies rather straight, lets take the thing for a test drive and see if it is steerable. Oops, you can't flare it or steer it without it diving, or a brake line won't come out of the keeper, then what should we do?"

So when we watch the video, I ask the questions on each mal. "Is it there?". "Is it square?".

Then we have to go into things like hard pulls, missing handles, horseshoes, two out... But we have no video for this.

If I had the ideal video, it would first address teaching the concept of "there, square, steerable" or whatever terms the school uses.

Then it would branch out to the situations like line twists, etc.

Gotta run, but these are some of my initial thoughts.

Simply put, the video that started this thread does not really address the teaching concepts, as you have pointed out. Some are super simple to teach, others are complex. Anyway, I am always looking for better teaching things, so let me know what you guys find.

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AFFI,

After reading some of this back and forth comments, I have a question that might help inspire thoughts...

We have a few malfunction videos at our disposal...

How I use it... As the video is playing, I ask the question... "What would you do". For 90% of the shots, they say, "cutaway and deploy reserve."

I really don't care if a student knows a line over vs a tension knot... It is either "there, square, and steerable" or not...

I teach this as: "You are going to ask three questions about this canopy. The first is a very simple yes or no. Is it there? If not you must... The second is, is it square and looking like a canopy? Here you might have some "almosts", like line twists, slider up, or closed end cells that we will try to fix. If you can't fix by your decision altitude, then you must... Now that we have done our two first visual inspections and know it flies rather straight, lets take the thing for a test drive and see if it is steerable. Oops, you can't flare it or steer it without it diving, or a brake line won't come out of the keeper, then what should we do?"

So when we watch the video, I ask the questions on each mal. "Is it there?". "Is it square?".

Then we have to go into things like hard pulls, missing handles, horseshoes, two out... But we have no video for this.

If I had the ideal video, it would first address teaching the concept of "there, square, steerable" or whatever terms the school uses.

Then it would branch out to the situations like line twists, etc.

Gotta run, but these are some of my initial thoughts.

Simply put, the video that started this thread does not really address the teaching concepts, as you have pointed out. Some are super simple to teach, others are complex. Anyway, I am always looking for better teaching things, so let me know what you guys find.



It's one thing to watch a video and then ask what would you do?

It is MUCH more productive to place these pictures above their head in a hanging harness and say show me what you would do.

The video snippets are nice to watch and you can get verbal feedback from the students, but you have to see the student execute the proper response.

I think this is where the 'disparity' is, in that the video is not an end all to this.

You HAVE to have the student demonstrate proper responses in the hanging harness.
If we can all agree on this point, then it should be obvious that the only E&D that needs to be done is:
- a good canopy looks like this
- line twists look like this and you fix it by pulling the risers apart and kicking
- slider up looks like this and you fix it by pumping the brakes
- end cell closure looks like this and you fix it by pulling the brakes down and holding until they inflate

Then in the HH you toss out pics of line overs or bag locks and ask them to respond.
The STD does not have to know what that mal is or what caused it. They only have to demonstrate that they know it's not square and it's not controllable, so they will cutaway and pull reserve. And they have to do that in the HH.

Watching a bunch of video clips does nothing to add to their learning. Only the proper execution in the HH gets them to the 'ok' to go do a jump.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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I still think it could be helpful in teaching . You will always ask the student demostrate that they are capable . I think that video could show them something that is wrong instead of seeing it in the sky for the first time. Sorry about the spelling :)
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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I think you are the one that doesnt under stand . I am not saying just put a video in and then go jump out of a plane at all . What we are trying to do is put a video together so as you go threw the jump class you can watch a clip of video then teach what is on the video ( by using harness ect. ) Thats what we are trying to do



Your video project is an overkill. You don't need to show this mal and that mal to FJSs.

You have to show them:
- a good canopy
- a canopy with line twists
- a canopy with slider up
- a canopy with end cell closure

then tell them what they have to do to fix each minor problem.

Then an explanation of total - nothing out and partial - something out, but not square or controllable and the appropriate EPs.

Then pop those students into the hanging harness and throw all the various mals at them, even if they have not seen a picture of it before.
Get them to demonstrate they can figure out what is or is not controllable and execute the proper procedures.

There is no need to sit through minutes of mal examples on a video to see these examples.
Instructors need to know if the STD will respond correctly.

Get them in the HH and have them show you (off some flash card or projected image of a scenario) what the proper response is.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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It's one thing to watch a video and then ask what would you do?

It is MUCH more productive to place these pictures above their head in a hanging harness and say show me what you would do.



Different strokes for different folks.

I spend a lot of time with video as it is hard to convey in a photo the urgency of diving line twists vs straight flying line twists.

Also, I don't like photos in the hanging harness. I find I can be much more effective being dynamic, pushing them around, showing them what line twists look like with the ropes that hold up the hanging harness and letting them, kick out, letting them pull toggles and me turning them (or not turning them to see if they understand).

With the photos, the student spent so much brain energy trying to interpret the poster sized photo, their brain was not on the mechanics... Also, I could not run fast enough with the photo when I was spinning them around to simulate what a diving mal felt like...:):P:)
I have tried both and like my current system better, but am always looking for new ideas.;)

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I totally agree with you and TDog is "barking" up the right tree, teaching mals is hands on for the most part - what are those 5 "T's"?

Tell em
Tell em what you told em
Tell em again
Have them Tell you what you told em
Show me what you Told me (demonstrate)


Something like that. If learning has taken place, the student should know the material without notes, because there are no cheat notes at 2500 feet!

Keep it simple:
There are two types of parachutes -
Good (safe to land, can pass a CC)
Bad (not safe to land)

There are only two kinds of canopies Good (CC and land) and Bad (Total or Partial) everything falls into those categories, either a canopy can pass a CC or it cannot – how complicated is that?

No need to remember the names of anything - just be able to recognize good from bad - then it gets a little more complicated but that can be kept simple as well with proper ground training and teaching techniques.

One thing that drives me crazy is calling line twists an "Unusual Situation" or an "Issue" or some bullshit like that.
That is creating undue complcation from the simplicity of can it be controlled or not.

Line Twists (not spinning) are a Partial until they are fixed - can they be fixed?
Maybe. Dependent on what? Altitude.
Why are they a Partial and not simply a nuisance?
Because they cannot pass a CC, it is that simple…
Most important thing to know while dealing with LTs (or any potentially fixable Partial)? Altitude.
I have seen many JMs drop the ball on altitude awareness when training to deal with any potentially fixable Partial or another is the all important altitude check BEFORE the roll to recover on release dives or before each maneuver on upper level dives.
Having a student trying to roll to recover while screaming through their deployment altitude is no picnic!

Anyone who claims that a student cannot properly be taught everything they need to know either does not know how to teach or they are not doing their job.
The key as MIH (MakeItHappen) has so appropriately pointed out is to keep it simple and repetition until the student can properly demonstrate in a malfunction trainer.

The DZ I work at is challenging because the DZO requires us to train students properly and we use real sport rigs with real handles.
So we have to make certain that the students are properly trained.

Is the use of viedo a good training tool?
In my opinion, most definitely yes.


Utilizing video media as a supplement to the learning process is very effective when utilized correctly and nothing but a waste of time when done incorrectly.
It is a delicate process that takes time to learn how to do effectively.
A 15 minute malfunction video is not a waste of time in a FJC if it is utilized properly, it is one of the 5 T's (just like using pictures), but is also an auditory and visual reinforcement.
I spent years producing educational and training multimedia, so naturally when I became an instructor I was eager to learn how to properly utilize multimedia in the training curriculum - it has turned out to be quite effective as I have spent countless hours perfecting the system being utilized at the center I teach at.

Hopefully, next season it will be available to everyone because by then, hopefully I will have all non-copyrighted media elements incorporated.

Can multimedia be utilized in lieu of an instructor?
In my opinion, most definitely not a chance
– and I think it was MIH hat explained quite eloquently as to why, which I totally agree with so no need to get into that.


Could I be wrong about all this?
Of course…

But I have trained with students throughout the entire training course at the DZ I work at and at the end, they can teach malfunction training, nothing like having proof in the pudding.

Properly teaching students how to correctly deal with malfunctions is the single most important task an AFFI has.

Shold this post get any longer?
Hell NO!!!

-
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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I have seen many JMs drop the ball on altitude awareness when training to deal with any potentially fixable Partial or another is the all important altitude check BEFORE the roll to recover on release dives or before each maneuver on upper level dives.



Mine did... (drop the ball) :P My first line twists at 30 jumps I did not look at my Alti - and I had to kick out of 9 twists. I lived, but was not doing what I should have done.

I now teach what I do. For line twists: "Kick once, Kick twice, Alti... Kick once, Kick twice, Alti."

This lines up with our conversations of horseshoes (clearing a pilot chute from a hand or body part) and hard pulls/can't find handle. "Try once (to clear/pull), Try twice, EPs."

When the students demonstrate kicking out of twists I expect them to demonstrate the alti and say it outloud.

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Mine did... (drop the ball) :P My first line twists at 30 jumps I did not look at my Alti - and I had to kick out of 9 twists. I lived, but was not doing what I should have done.

I now teach what I do. For line twists: "Kick once, Kick twice, Alti... Kick once, Kick twice, Alti."

Quote



Great idea, I'm going to stat using that. B|

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Mine did... (drop the ball) :P My first line twists at 30 jumps I did not look at my Alti - and I had to kick out of 9 twists. I lived, but was not doing what I should have done.

I now teach what I do. For line twists: "Kick once, Kick twice, Alti... Kick once, Kick twice, Alti."

Quote



Great idea, I'm going to stat using that. B|



Altitude checks before beginning to deal with potentially fixable malfunctions while training builds good habits for the student.
For example, when training in the HH if we are practicing LTs, the student must check their altitude before they begin to kick out and I will call out an altitude, say 4,200 feet! Then they begin to kick and must count out loud, checking their Alt every 5 seconds. Sometimes I will then present them with a hard deck call of 2,500’ that will require EPs for a partial sometimes I will present them with a good canopy scenario at say 3,500’ when they must begin a CC. During the CC I will always have the CC fail at least once during a training session so they learn that just because they get out of the LTs, it does not mean they do not have another problem like broken lines or something which will cause a failure (like a stall when flaring) of the CC. Sometimes I will throw a curveball with the LT scenario, and when they make their initial ALT check I will call out 2500, which necessitates a cutaway and reserve deployment. This really drives home the importance or remaining altitude aware while trying to fix a problem and adhering to hard deck recommendations.
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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I want to apologize for my frastation yesterday . I appreciate all the help . I also understand that I am new to this sport and I just do it for fun . Most of the comments were left from people that have so much more experience then me. Thank you for your help :)
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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Like toxic waste, some things should be disposed of properly (thanks mods)...

Don't let the nay-sayers discourage you Ozzy, keep helping your friend, building your stuff and at the very least, you will grow and learn from the experience more than you can imagine. It is going to help you be an awesome instructor one day.

I remember when I had a couple hundred jumps, and I told my rigger "I am going to be an instructor one day" - he laughed at me (out loud). Now, he would say (and has) I am a quality instructor he would feel comfortable sending a loved one to for skydive instruction. Nobody thouht I could excel, much less even obtain the rating, but kept my eye on my goals, and took the necessary action to achieve them.

I strongly encourage you to do the same.
Take the constructive criticisim, and feed off of it, use it to make yourself and your output better.
_
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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Altitude checks before beginning to deal with potentially fixable malfunctions while training builds good habits for the student.



Good point. That was assumed in my post.

One of the things you talk about is students counting to 5.... It concerns me because students (and even experienced skydivers) seem to modify the space-time-continuum... I don't see an AFF student. I see a soon-to-be licenced skydiver who needs to learn life long lessons...

Here is a true story... I have it on video... I had a good twist (single twist) on my canopy. I told someone "it spun a lot on opening and took forever to get out." On video, less than two seconds. But even with hundreds of jumps in the last year (to prove currency) - my brain could not process the actual time... In this case, it was the advanced thought process of my brain calculating altitude consumption that associated altitude with time and distorted my reality... But how many AFF students tell you "I started my diveflow right away" or "I waited forever to start my diveflow after we left" and they were completely wrong...

So, I like to teach something that uses a rhythm and beat to it that, when done, uses a physical action to establish the "beat"... "Kick Once, Kick Twice, Alti"... Well, the difference between the slowest kick and the fastest kick is less than a second I suppose... Counting to 5 has so much room for error and requires the student's brain to do two separate tasks... Kick and count. Try playing the drums to your favorite CD and count outloud at a completely different pace than the kick drum. A big kick with a reset takes 2 seconds. 5 kicks = 10 seconds. That could be too long... I picked try once, try twice, alti - because that would be about 5 seconds. Even at 120 MPH, that is only 1000 or so feet.... An AFF pulling at 5.5K = a-ok. Once they get off AFF, that is their entire window between their new pull alti and decision alti.

Now with my system - I do have to teach the student what a "try" is for the training of clearing a horseshoe or can't find PC. To do this, I wrap a bridle around my wrist. I demonstrate a "try". I also wear a rig and demonstrate a "try" to find the hacky. Then the class demonstrates a "try".

Plus... Another reason why I like it... If the student says the response to line twists is: "Separate risers thumbs down, kick once, kick twice, alti" - they have built their alti awareness directly into the procedure - instead of adding "and don't forget to count" as something to add on top of the base physical mechanics of kicking.

Just my thoughts and justification for my methods.;)

These are all reasons (keeping this on topic) why a good training video, in my opinion, does not illustrate the EPs, when to do the EPs, or how to do EPs... It just shows a situation and allows the instructor to teach to the situation....

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Altitude checks before beginning to deal with potentially fixable malfunctions while training builds good habits for the student.



Good point. That was assumed in my post.

I scared myself pretty good on my first line twists by kicking out of 9 twists without looking once at my alti, so I thought about this a lot... The following is my devil's advocate argument.

One of the things you talk about is students counting to 5.... It concerns me because students (and even experienced skydivers) seem to modify the space-time-continuum... I don't see an AFF student. I see a soon-to-be licenced skydiver who needs to learn life long lessons...

Here is a true story... I had a good dive (single line twist) on my canopy a few months ago. I told someone on landing "it spun a lot on opening and took forever to get out. Felt like I needed to chop it soon." On video, it lasted less than two seconds. But even with hundreds of jumps in the last year (to prove currency) - my brain could not process the actual time... That was me... Now... How many AFF students tell you "I started my diveflow right away" or "I waited forever to start my diveflow after we left" and they were completely wrong...

So, I like to teach something that uses a rhythm and beat to it that, when done, uses a physical action to establish the "beat"... "Kick Once, Kick Twice, Alti"... I teach it, because it is what I do...

The difference between the slowest kick and the fastest kick is less than a second I suppose... Counting to 5 has so much room for error and requires the student's brain to do two separate tasks... Kick and count (and remember to count) Try playing the drums to your favorite CD and count outloud at a completely different pace than the kick drum. Now be kicking that kickdrum with the body language of your whole body. I argue it is hard to count "one-one thousand" while kicking at a different beat.

A big kick with a reset takes 2 seconds. 5 kicks = 10 seconds if the skydiver counts at the same speed as a kick. That could be too long... I picked "try once, try twice, alti" - because that would be about 5 seconds. Even at 120 MPH, that is only 1000 or so feet.... An AFF pulling at 5.5K waiting 5 seconds between alti = a-ok. Once they get their A, that is their entire window between their new pull alti of around 4K and the decision alti.

Now with my system - I do have to teach the student what a "try" is for the training of clearing a horseshoe or can't find PC - using the "try once, try twice, EPs" To do this, I wrap a bridle around my wrist. I demonstrate a "try". I also wear a rig and demonstrate a "try" to find the hacky. I make it clear that a try is a quick, crisp, clean, deliberate action. Then the class demonstrates a "try".

Plus... Another reason why I like it... If the student says the response to line twists is: "Separate risers thumbs down, kick once, kick twice, alti" - they have built their alti awareness directly into the procedure - instead of adding "and don't forget to count" as something to add on top of the base physical mechanics of kicking.

Just my thoughts and justification for my methods.;)

These are all reasons (keeping this on topic) why a good training video, in my opinion, does not illustrate the EPs, when to do the EPs, or how to do EPs... It just shows a situation and allows the instructor to teach to the situation....

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That was assumed in my post.



When teaching and explaining a teaching method, NOTHING is assumed - it always needs to be "by the numbers" to lessen the chance of miscommunication.
Effective communications is one of the hardest things humans do in day to day life an is rarely accomplished


I remember once, I was debriefing a student (I wear video on every student jump). When I “Threw” my PC he heard me counting rater loudly on the video – as my canopy was sniveling you could hear my voice over the cacophony or canopy and wind, counting rather loudly and quite deliberately.

The student I was working with looked at me an asked me this:
“With all your jumps and experience, why do you still count when opening your parachute?”
My answer was simple – “because this evening, I want to go home, kiss my dinner and eat my wife – so I do everything I can to make certain I survive and I keep it simple and fundamental.”

The primary lesion I learned here is that students watch us; we really are setting an example and building habits that they will use for the rest of their careers.

Counting as they kick is what I have recently seen an instructor (that I respect) use as one of his methods, so I used it in my illustration because it totally drives home the ultra important aspect of fixing potentially fixable malfunctions. One of my last jumps I had pretty good LTs so I started counting just like after I “throw” my PC it worked really great! It reminded to check my Alt and help keep my track with the actual seconds I was spending working on the situation.

What I teach students verbatim is right out of our student manual:
1) Remain ALTITUDE aware by visually checking your altimeter!
2) Pull risers apart, twist body and scissor kick in the opposite direction of the twists. When grasping your risers, do not grab high on the risers near the suspension lines because the canopy may not be finished spinning and you do not want to get the risers wrapped around your hand, wrist or forearm. Grasp your risers around forehead level with your palms facing outward; this will keep your altimeter in view so you can monitor your altitude.

I try everything I teach, and I actually found that for me, counting aloud is a better method, "kicking and counting" rather than “placing hands outward”, but both get the job done which is teach the importance of Alt check FIRST then monitor Alt while dealing with a potentially fixable partial malfunction.
The “Kick Kick Check” method will work to that end as well, this I am mostly certain, the primary flaw is not checking the Alt BEFORE beginning to deal with a potentially fixable partial malfunction (jeez, I sound like a broken recording).

Your rhythm argument does not hold water because you can count to the “rhythm” that you are kicking (I am a trained musician who can read music and have been around my share of garage bands).
Although, I was intrigued by your suggested “Kick Kick Check” method that I have already planned on using it the next time I have LTs to see how it compares to other methods I have tried with the only change being an altitude check before I begin. I am always totally open to change, and will try out anything that will not endanger my safety.

Actually, the first thing I thought when I read the "kick kick check" was “Jeez, that could throw off their rhythm and keep them from kicking constantly”. Which is almost the same thing when you thought when reading my fellow instructors method - Odd, isn’t it?


There are so many effective ways to teach someone how to do the same thing, and some methods work better for different individuals. As a teacher, often times I will get caught up in believing that being set in my ways is the best because a method I have been employing for years works so well, but I often times have to remind myself that there are more than 10 ways to effectively and correctly skin a cat.

The bottom line is that we somehow teach Check Alti first - Monitor Alti during and pay CLOSE attention to the hard deck. (Too many skydivers have gotten line stretch on their reserves upon impact).

I have had many jumpers approach me years after workin with me and tell me that they STILL check Alt before woring on a potentially fixable situation.
So we are building habits that last...
_
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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These are all reasons (keeping this on topic) why a good training video, in my opinion, does not illustrate the EPs, when to do the EPs, or how to do EPs... It just shows a situation and allows the instructor to teach to the situation....



We'll have to agree to disagree on that - my experience tells me the opposite, a good training production properly utilized does EXACTLY that, but I think I see what you are trying to say...

“does not illustrate”

Main Entry: il•lus•trate
Pronunciation: 'i-l&s-"trAt also i-'l&s-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -trat•ed; -trat•ing
Etymology: Latin illustratus, past participle of illustrare, from in- + lustrare to purify, make bright -- more at LUSTER
transitive verb
1 obsolete a : ENLIGHTEN b : to light up
2 a archaic : to make illustrious b obsolete (1) : to make bright (2) : ADORN
3 a : to make clear : CLARIFY b : to make clear by giving or by serving as an example or instance c : to provide with visual features intended to explain or decorate
4 : to show clearly : DEMONSTRATE
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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We'll have to agree to disagree on that - my experience tells me the opposite, a good training production properly utilized does EXACTLY that, but I think I see what you are trying to say...



If the video follows exactly the school/dz/instructor policy - then it can show the complete situation including the EPs, and perhaps even teach the EPs in conjunction with the teacher...

To further clarify - I am saying... Show a mal so the student can see the mal - then pause the video and allow the instructor to say, "our procedure is... Do it with me. Lets practice."


If the EPs were shown... The video producer would have to determine... Throw handles vs keep handles... (I bet they keep to save video production costs) Two hands one handle, two handles, one hand. Imagine all the other variables that would have to be determined by the video producer and accepted by the instructors...;)

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If the video follows exactly the school/dz/instructor policy - then it can show the complete situation including the EPs, and perhaps even teach the EPs in conjunction with the teacher...

To further clarify - I am saying... Show a mal so the student can see the mal - then pause the video and allow the instructor to say, "our procedure is... Do it with me. Lets practice."

If the EPs were shown... The video producer would have to determine... Throw handles vs keep handles... (I bet they keep to save video production costs) Two hands one handle, two handles, one hand. Imagine all the other variables that would have to be determined by the video producer and accepted by the instructors...;)



Speaking from Experience based on trial and error or Speculation?

Millions of skydivers were taught with ripcords, and many JM’s were reluctant to move on to the BOC for training students. Even millions more were trained without the use of modern medial elements or VR or fancy electronic gadgets or a SIM with a fancy color cover – so I am in no way implying that anything more than a JM, gear an some altitude are all that is needed to train someone how to make a successful skydive.
But for those of us who are willing to change, willing to advance with modern technology an techniques, and at least try to make our training methods improved over the ones we were taught with ourselves – then we must be willing to open our minds to new ideas an possibilities. I have not even taught 100 FJC’s yet and that is not a lot of experience, so I am willing to change just about everything I do to make myself of better service to the students I work with.


The team I have been working with, we have been using trial and error to incorporate usage of multimedia for 5 years in a direct application to training skydiving students, and it has been proven an extremely useful tool based on results of level of proficiency in student performance and retention of knowledge and is clearly proven evidence that the points you are making are not entirely accurate (but some are) – but I am basing that on my limited amount of experience as I only have around 500 actual student jumps and 15 years of experience producing educational multimedia.

This assessment has not only been recognized by myself, but also many other instructors that have mountains of more experience teaching skydiving than I will ever obtain in my lifetime.


I wish you could visit out DZ, go over the training program and see it in action.
Maybe Skyfest 2008?


Further volley’s of bantering will only turn this discussion into more of a pissing contest which I have no need to involve myself in simply because I know what I am stating is factual an accurate (how is that for arrogance;)).

Gotta wet back to work!_
-
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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