sergant 0 #1 March 13, 2007 Should ever AFF students be on a sunset load? Yes or no? And why? Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #2 March 13, 2007 Sure, why not. Just follow the BSR's and get them down before official sunset. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #3 March 13, 2007 QuoteSure, why not. Just follow the BSR's and get them down before official sunset. Possible reason...Light conditions are generally lower so hieght and depth perception can be skewedYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #4 March 13, 2007 QuoteSure, why not. Just follow the BSR's and get them down before official sunset. Our AFF program directs the student to pull if they lose both instructors. If that occurs at 14000ft, how would you suggest following the BSR's and getting them down? The solution, of course, is not to put AFF students on the sunset load. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #5 March 13, 2007 Short answer: no. Longer answer: at Raeford we won't put a solo student on a load within an hour of sunset. This is based on the student landing out and landing in a tree - it gives the DZ crew enough time to locate them, get to their location (both of these happen very quickly), and get the person out of the tree. Tree landings happen once in a blue moon, but past experience has shown that not putting up students that late in the day is good policy.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #6 March 13, 2007 QuoteShould ever AFF students be on a sunset load? Yes or no? And why? Thanks! Last student EXITING no later than thirty minutes prior to sunset. Why? You NEVER know if they are going to land on the DZ or if they will answer radio calls if flying astray. There is nothing worse than fishing an injured student out of a tree after dark. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 March 13, 2007 No.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #8 March 13, 2007 I teach at an 18 solo jump progression method. It depends on the student and where they are in the progression. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #9 March 14, 2007 Surely you don't mean 18 AFF jumps!?!?! We are saying that AFF students should not be on a sunset load - solo jumpers cleared for self-supervision should be assessed based on their skill set and gently pointed toward the safest alternative.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #10 March 14, 2007 QuoteSurely you don't mean 18 AFF jumps!?!?! Well, 16 Instructional Jumps, THEN the H&P and a Graduation Jump. So it is a 16 solo jump program (after 2 tandems) with a rated USPA Solo Freefall Instructor (not coaches). Kinda like the ISP... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #11 March 14, 2007 A student is any unlicensed skydiver. I see no reason to deny students the most glorious jump opportunity of the day - sunset. I can see the concern of putting a level I student out on a sunset load since they have not yet demonstrated the ability to find the dropzone and fly their canopy back towards it. Here in So Cal we do not have forested areas to loose a student in, so I can also understand the concern of those that do. As for myself - if I'm taking a level one student up for the sunset load I know I've got some additional concerns I need to manage and I'm expected to manage them well. I make sure the student has a clear recognition of the dropzone and that the radios are absolutely reliable. I don't take any marginal spots, and if the dive goes to shit I'm doing everything possible to not dump him out until a reasonable altitude. (I can't imagine two Instructors loosing control of a student at 14,000 ft). Plus, I've got a bullriders grip on my student before we get anywhere near the door. Everything we do out there is a risk, I feel I can manage the additional risk of taking students up on the sunset load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #12 March 14, 2007 Good for you. I have over 2000 AFF dives and have not yet been spat off a student. I'm pleased you have such confidence in your bullriders grip, but my experience of watching bullriders is that few last 8 seconds. This leads me to believe there is more to it than keeping your hand shut. It's always OK until it's not. As long as a student is instructed to pull when confronted with the "no instructor" scenario, the likelyhood exists that they may do so and be high enough not to be able to make a safe landing before it is too dark. The correct response to this risk is simply not to expose them to it. We should be mindful of what risk we choose to accept on behalf of our students. They would follow us into the gates of hell. We have a duty not to take them there. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #13 March 14, 2007 QuoteI can't imagine two Instructors loosing control of a student at 14,000 ft I have seen it, and on more than one occasion seen a student under canopy at 10k for varying reasons... Good to have confidence in oneself - careful about the over confidence though- shit you can not imagine to occour can, and when you least expect it. A low level student being taken on a "sunset" load is having additional risk placed on them, of that there is no doubt. -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #14 March 14, 2007 QuoteA student is any unlicensed skydiver. I see no reason to deny students the most glorious jump opportunity of the day - sunset. I can see the concern of putting a level I student out on a sunset load since they have not yet demonstrated the ability to find the dropzone and fly their canopy back towards it. My interpretation of the original post is that the author was referring to AFF students, not necessarily "unlicensed jumpers" that have completed AFF and are cleared for self-supervision. Regarding unlicensed jumpers, I see no reason to keep them from making a sunset load.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HillerMyLife 0 #15 March 14, 2007 Hmm...I guess I never thought about it. I did my last AFF at Perris on the sunset load. Keith and I were the last two out of the Otter and it was gorgeous. I can see where you instructors are coming from though, and I can respect the attitude of manage and control as many factors as possible especially when you consider all the things that can happen any way! A question on that topic...how much input do instructors have with the school staff on decisions such as these??Someday Never Comes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 March 14, 2007 QuoteA question on that topic...how much input do instructors have with the school staff on decisions such as these?? In the end 100% input. As an instructor you simply refuse to get on the aircraft if there is any concern about the saftey of your student. Hopefully the operation has much better lines of comunication than that however.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #17 March 14, 2007 No, here in the midwest it can be very easy to lose a student to tall corn and bean fields during the season, it is even harded to find them if they are hurt and laying down once the sun goes down. In some cases the person could die from injurys before being found. Anyone who has tried to find a lost student in Sugar cane or very large and tall corn fields, can tell you it can be a big pain in the ass in day light and even from the air, let alone after its dark.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #18 March 15, 2007 QuoteNo, here in the midwest it can be very easy to lose a student to tall corn and bean fields during the season, it is even harded to find them if they are hurt and laying down once the sun goes down. In some cases the person could die from injurys before being found. Anyone who has tried to find a lost student in Sugar cane or very large and tall corn fields, can tell you it can be a big pain in the ass in day light and even from the air, let alone after its dark. You mean like trying to find Jay Stokes in 6' corn at 5:00 a.m. pitch dark? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #19 March 16, 2007 Yea, but now add in a broken leg or other injury.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #20 March 19, 2007 Quote I make sure ... that the radios are absolutely reliable. ? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sergant 0 #21 March 20, 2007 Guys, thanks for the all of your comments. I meant about AFF students who hasn't cleared for their own selfsupervision yet. I knew that it is a bad idea to put them on a sunset load, but since now I will reject it regardless of DZO opinion... Thanks, Val Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #22 April 5, 2007 A student is a skydiver who has not obtained their A License regardless of their level if training, remain classified as a student until the A license is achieved. The BSR is vary clear about student jumps. 2-1 E. Student skydivers 9. All student jumps, including tandems, must be completed between official sunrise and sunset. [NW] If I know I am going to have the student’s feet on the ground by official sunset we’re good, I just hope they don’t waste their time admiring the view during the jump.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #23 April 5, 2007 QuoteA student is a skydiver who has not obtained their A License regardless of their level if training, remain classified as a student until the A license is achieved. The original post asks specifically about AFF students. QuoteThe BSR is vary clear about student jumps. If you read the entire thread, you will see that the BSR regarding students and sunrise/sunset has already been discussed. QuoteIf I know I am going to have the student’s feet on the ground by official sunset we’re good So, what is your plan if your student has a reserve ride and lands in the trees? Or, what if the student opens high and lands well off the DZ?Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #24 April 6, 2007 QuoteThe original post asks specifically about AFF students. True he is specific about an AFF however I only pointed out by definition what classifies a student. I see from your ealer post that there is confusion in this. Just because a student has been cleared to self jump master him or her self is no longer a student, is not true. QuoteSo, what is your plan if your student has a reserve ride and lands in the trees? Or, what if the student opens high and lands well off the DZ? Well, I ran to manifest had them called the pilot on his decent instructed him to spot the student until she was down then I went and got her.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 April 7, 2007 QuoteSo, what is your plan if your student has a reserve ride and lands in the trees? Or, what if the student opens high and lands well off the DZ? Come again? I missed the part about how that applies to AFF students on sunset loads.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
