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LawnDart21

Tandem Masters that don't give thier students a ripcord, why?

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less and less for their money based on What. I had a student ask me one time Why are you telling me this as I tought him about the handle and altui. He said thats what I am paying you for. If he wanted to learn he would have sighned up for AFF. I never give my first jump tandems a handle or even breif them on it unless they really want to pull and I have time to give a completebreifing. Even then If I dont feel they will succeed I wont let them pull. I too have had 14000 deploymentby a student. I ask my students if they want to and if they do I will dress for success. I havent had a first time student really want to pull in months.
More people will and do return you to further their skydiving carrers if we share the beauty, excitement and pleasure of our world. Dont give them the responcability of saving their own life while sharing those things with them for the first time. most just want to ride the ride the first time.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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... I taught him about the handle and altimeter. He said thats what I am paying you for. If he wanted to learn he would have signed up for AFF.. I havent had a first time student really want to pull in months.



To me, hearing those things is really sad. Not wanting to learn or participate is sad. It indicates that Tandem jumps are not registering in their minds as a skydive, but only as a carnival ride.

Now the important question is, why? Do you think most of these people know Tandem skydiving as carnival rides from word-of-mouth or from seeing videos of students not participating?

Does the drop zone care? Where do you instruct?

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you say the students return rate seems to be higher when they pull and share in the whole experience - if that is so why not give evryone the opertunity ? if they don't you'll still be there - when a student would say "what if i don't remember everything " i would say don't worry have fun what ever you remember is a bonus and i'll do whatever you don't - it is that simple

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Well said Mark. Instruct is the key thing. I just recently came from a drop zone where the TI'S teach arch, how to read alti,pull and land the canopy on everyones first jump.
This is because the drop zone owner understands that in order to have a successful DZ you need to fill the benches. The way you grow a DZ and our sport is to grow skydivers. You can go to this 6 yr. old DZ any day of the week and go to altitude on a turbine. The reason is because there are 1 or 2 tandems, 1 or 2 students and a small handfull of freshly trained graduates who call their friends to go out and do 2 or 3 ways. By the way Mark I tell mine"dont worry if you dont pull I have a very vested interest in the outcome so I will"

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thanx for the vote - i had alot of students say " what if i forget ... " i would say just have fun everything you remember is a bonus and most would remember and all that did pull felt better after the skydive - when the students got together after the jump it was wow that was great i pulled the rip cord did you ? i hated it when another student would reply back and say my instructor would let me do anything with a sorry look on his/her face

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I've been a TI at three different drop zones. One treats tandem passengers like students and assumes they come to completely experience a skydive. After I introduce myself, I ask why they want to jump. I mostly hear some variation of "This is something I've always wanted to do."

I train them how to exit, maintain an arch, check their altitude and pull at the right time. We give tandem students an audible altimeter, and that helps tremendously. And at the end of training, we tell the student that if they forget anything, we're right there to help. I have had only one student at this DZ really not want to pull. All of the others either wanted to pull or were worried that they may not pull. Note the huge difference between being worried that you may not be able to pull and not wanting to pull at all.

At least 80% of my tandems at this DZ pull with little or no help finding the ripcord (I do often take their hand and guide it to the handle.) More than 95% at least try to find the ripcord. And every one of them knows that if they don't, I will. (I usually tell them that I have a seriously hot wife waiting for me after the day's jumping, and I'm strongly motivated to finish the jump safely.)

This DZ has a significant return rate with tandem students coming back for further instruction, although it's still way lower than I would expect. But then again, I can't understand anyone not wanting to jump from a perfectly good airplane. So why do we have as good a return rate as we do? I think the feeling of accomplishment the students get after performing a skydive (with assistance) combined with the discount price on the SL first jump course after tandem are both major factors. To really find out, we'd need some serious market research, and the DZ does not have that kind of money to invest.

Oh, and I have been burned by a student who pulled right after exit. Yes it sucks, but it still doesn't happen to me often enough for me to worry about giving a student the ripcord.

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Now that I don't get, I don't understand why you would think that is sad. If they want a carnival ride give them one.
Alot of people are content on the "no responsibility" thing
I do agree that students should be able to pull for themselves if they want, but if they don't want to then that is their choice. The term carnival ride is offensive to some tandem instructors because they feel like they are not getting to demonstrate their ability to teach and reap the gods honest wonderful feeling when you see something you taught done correctly. I do love the feeling, but if someone wants to just enjoy the ride and not worry about any responsibility the so be it. Customer service is our job.
Honestly if someone is not letting the student pull due to fear of student doing something like pulling too high or getting in a head down attitude during deployment then....Train your student better! (or maybe consider retraining yourself on "what to do if" situations)
P.S. Ron is Gay
"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form"

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Now that I don't get, I don't understand why you would think that is sad. If they want a carnival ride give them one.



What I think is sad is this person's statement that:
"I havent had a first time student really want to pull in months."

I think that is sad because it would seem that not many of these students have even been exposed to Tandem jumps as anything but a carnival ride.

If a really nervous student says they don't want to pull (could be for any number of reasons), I can understand that, but for so many to not want to participate means the momentum of the attitude about instruction (or lack of it) at that drop zone is heading toward carnival ride.

Like I said in an earlier reply, wouldn't it be nice if all of the Tandem students were not just willing to learn, but eager? How could a Tandem instructor not just eat that up? It is so gratifying to teach someone who is eager to learn!

If you simply give them a carnival ride just because they initially ask for one, it means you have given up. Given up on instruction, and given up on Tandem.

(I bet i'm not the only one who fears that skydiving is just going to wind up being Tandem carnival rides.)

Tandem students who think that their jump is going to be only a carnival ride need to be educated that their jump can be so much more! Yes, this requires work, and this requires that the Tandem instructor push back the carnival ride attitude.

But it's worth it isn't it? For the sake of skydiving?

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(I bet i'm not the only one who fears that skydiving is just going to wind up being Tandem carnival rides.)



You like jumping out of Twin Otters, right?

You like jumping at a DZ with some sort of facilities right?

You like seeing your DZO make money to make your DZ better and spend money on gear for students right?

That's all paid for by the whuffo jumper who shows up for their one tandem. The large majority of people that show up for their first jump will not continue. Hell, out of the 6 people in the FJC on May 21,2000 to learn how to do their first S/L jump, I'm the only one that still jumps regularly. The 2nd closest only has about 500 jumps and hasn't jumped in nearly a year.

The large majority of people jump for a "one time experience." Sad but true. Atleast it pays the bills so we get to jump for $20 a jump and jump out of nice planes.

As a TI I prefer the students that want to learn, the ones that don't refuse to have an Alti and the ones that don't refuse to learn beyond the basic "how to exit and how to arch." The dozen or so people I've taken and taught and seen get their license out of the 1000 tandems I've done make me happy. I jump with them every weekend and its great. However, that's not the reality of the status of the industry. You old time jumpers are great, I love you guys to death; however, tandems have become and were since the beginning, a great training tool but also a way to get the masses to skydive. The masses skydiving have given us skydiving as we know it today. Even though for the majority of them a tandem is a carnival ride. Hell, for the DZs that do AFF first jumps and only those jumps (or S/L) a first jump is still a first jump. Just a carnival ride the 90% of the first jump students out there. If a first jump wasn't just a carnival ride, then we would see over 80% retention. However we don't. No matter how the first jump is completed, retention is WELL under 50%. Tandem, AFF, IAD, S/L or some sort of made up version in between, its still a carnival ride for the large majority of first jump students.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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You like jumping out of Twin Otters, right? You like jumping at a DZ with some sort of facilities right? You like seeing your DZO make money to make your DZ better and spend money on gear for students right?



Tandem jumps paying for much of what we enjoy is a well known fact, but other instructional methods make money too. (But of course it depends on where a drop zone is located and whether they can get staff willing to do that type of instruction.)

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You old time jumpers are great, I love you guys to death; however...



Well, I'm not one of the old time jumpers that thinks "Tandem is ruining skydiving" (just to let everyone else reading this know.)

But giving up on instruction, and in particular, not giving Tandem student ripcords like we do students trained in other instruction methods is certainly not helping promote the idea that someone can continue in this wonderful sport.

I would like to end my part of this thread by saying that I know of Tandem instruction being done very well in a lot of places.

I just wanted to comment on why I thought Tandem students should be given ripcords and trainined to use them.

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Even if we give them a handle and an altimeter and some training, I think it's still a carnival ride for them. Even if it's an AFP jump and we teach them turns and forward movement and canopy control, as long as we're there it's still just a ride.

When people ask me what kind of jump they should do I tell them if they want to go for a fun ride come with me, if they want to learn to skydive take the SL class. Some people think we're somehow cheapening what being a tandem master means by just giving thrill rides. I don't mind feeling more like an entertainer than an instructor. I just like hearing them say "OH MY GOD!!!" when the canopy opens.

If I found teaching people more gratifying than entertaining them I'd get an AFF or SL rating.

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I feel that a tandem jump can be whatever the student wants it to be. Of course people have varying levels of enthusiasm and interest in learning. I have worked at DZ's that do it both ways. I now work at a DZ where EVERY tandem student is instructed in the use of an altimeter, and how to pull. From there it is up to them to participate to their level of comfort. I get a student who says they don't want to pull and I tell them, "of course you don't have to pull, and I am there to back you up. But it is likely that you will feel differently when you get up there, so I want you to know how to pull." 90% of them do. Many of those who thought they did not want to pull walk away from their skydive with a feeling of accomplishment and feeling like they learned something. Then they ARE more likely to come back. I have 3000 tandems, 2500 of them letting my students pull and help me land the parachute. To those who worry about the student pulling high, PROTECT YOUR HANDLES. Be aware of where your students hands are, or are going at all times during the skydive.

If all you give your student is an amusement park ride, that is likely all they will see the sport as. If you involve them and teach them something, and explain to them how easy it is to learn to do, they are more likely to come back.

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If somebody shows up and just wants to fuck off, do flips, and have fun, then I will certainly accomodate them. If they tell me that they are seriously considering taking up skydivng, then I will take the extra ten minutes to train them up for a Cat A tandem. I ask every single customer what they prefer.

Chuck

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