Tandem Masters that don't give thier students a ripcord, why?

[LawnDart21 0]

I'm doing some research, and would like some input on this subject. I have been told that there are tandem instructors out there that do not give thier students a ripcord. Why not? Thanks in advance for your input.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[jdog 0]

One reason not to give them the opportunity to pull is that it can make for a shitty opening. You really need to be doing your most active flying as they are gropping around for the handle. Sometimes they ball up (de-arch) to try and get it. This can pitch you head low as you go through the trap door effect. You should be able to out fly all of these effects, but it would be nice not to have to.

Also, sometimes they pull way too early. Usually you can block it. This makes for a super long canopy flight.

This being said, where I jump we give them the handle.

Jim

[skydiverek 54]

Same thread HERE:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=541581#541581

[AggieDave 6]

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I have been told that there are tandem instructors out there that do not give thier students a ripcord. Why not? Thanks in advance for your input.

Some of us jump updated and more modern gear that do not use ripords in that fasion and they are fasioned to the instructor's harness in such a fasion as to simulate the position of a BOC deployment for the student.

So I never give my student a ripcord.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[piisfish 135]

the rigs I use are not equipped with such a ripcord.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[marks2065 0]

imo all students should be given the chance to pull - but to many dzo's forgot that the student is an important person and they end up as meat rides for dollars - all the dzo's and alot of ti's are interested in is how fast they can pull the money out of the students pocket. quality tandems and teaching have slipped away - therefor why give the student that isn't trained properly the chance to pull

[Revillusion 0]

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Some of us jump updated and more modern gear

That's about as subtle as a 2 by 4 across the forhead. Nice one Dave, I'm still LMAO on that one.

VIRTUS JUNXIT MORS NON SEPARABIT

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

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I'm doing some research, and would like some input on this subject. I have been told that there are tandem instructors out there that do not give thier students a ripcord. Why not? Thanks in advance for your input.

I would guess that MOST TIs don't give their passengers the ripcord. I think the first time students enjoy the skydive more without the added stress of having to pull. Plus student can and do brain lock so the handle could be pulled at any time. I have seen several tandems open at 13,000 because the student pulled right out the door. Then there is the fact that the students drop the ripcords alot, thats just another expense to the DZ.
With the Sigma the ball is always there for them to pull. I just don't tell them about it. With the Vector 2s that we have I would rather use one without a aux ripcord, they just do more harm than good. If I do jump one with 2 handles the second one stays on my harness.

[USPA 0]

is the correct answer

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[NSEMN8R 0]

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I would guess that MOST TIs don't give their passengers the ripcord.

Really? I would have guessed the opposite. Everywhere I've jumped, the student gets a ripcord and the chance to pull.

You're right though. There have been a few times (under an open canopy at 10,000 ft.) that I wished they didn't have a handle.

Isn't that one of Strong's rules though? They have to have a ripcord and an alti and be trained on their use?

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

It was just my guess from what I have seen. I was suprised to see that so many still did. My guess is there is probably trends in different geographical areas. People see what others are doing around them and they follow suit. Around here it seems that most don't. Might be interesting to put a poll up. As for what Strong says, I don't know, I'm not Strong rated. I have seen Strong TIs not give student an altimiter or train them to pull.

[marks2065 0]

why is it that students get less and less for their money every year ? when most of us started we got more training and we were more involved with the jumped from the first jump. it seems to me that the more the tandem costs the less the student gets to do and less training on the first tandem. i'm glad i started when i did because i was the student being trained to become a skydiver from the first jump. i was given the instruction needed to save my life and i did save it on the first jump by pulling the rip cord. i know i came back because i was given the feeling i was a skydiver and could do it myself. i know that most students would ask each other if they pulled and felt good about it when they did. after the jumps students would hang out and ask eacher other " did you pull ? " or "did you fly and land the chute? " if a student can't say yes to both he was robbed of part of the experience

[icevideot 0]

What made you come back was probably more than just having a sense of accomplishment after a tandem. I love to see students express interest in pulling but I have also seen many who would pay extra to not even know they have a handle. I believe all the students at my dropzone get to fly the canopy and even that scares some of them. I am not a TI and keep it clear in my mind who is in charge and responsible for the safety of the student. I have seen students have a very negative effect on the flare. I can't blame those who choose to flare on their own. That also frees up the students hands to help get their feet and knees up for a safe landing.

As for more money for less value, I don't think DZO's are making that much more. It seems the overhead costs have increased dramatically as well. Why are all the support calls handled overseas even though we are spending more on electronics? Life is a balancing act and we are just trying to stay on the scale.

Just my .02 . I only support the dz so I will have somewhere to jump and I try to train students well so they don't grow up and kill me (or you) later.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[riggerrob 558]

Because sometimes students panic and pull at odd altitudes.
For example, if a student pulls above 5,000 feet over Pitt Meadows, it really annoys Nav Canada and Air Canada and West Jet and Horizon Air and Lufthansa and Japan Airlines and British Overseas Airways and Air France and Korean Airlines and Ansett and Air New Zealand and American Airlines and Alaska Airlines ...

[riggerrob 558]

Because the last 50 times I offered a ripcord to a student, they replied: "No! You take care of that."

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

As icevidiot and riggerbob said most don't even want to pull. Most of them are there for a thrill ride. That's why tandem jumping came about isn't it. To let anyone experience the thrill of freefall without long training and high pressure. It wasn't to train people to skydive, that didn't come about till much later. So how are we robbing people. I give them the thrill that they want the safest way I can. By not giving them the ripcord I believe I make their experience safer which would add value to the service. BTW, I let the passenger fly the canopy, but I land it alone(also make the skydive safer) I'm not saying you are being unsafe just that you have no reason to bash that don't do it your way.

[peek 20]

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That's why tandem jumping came about isn't it. To let anyone experience the thrill of freefall without long training and high pressure. It wasn't to train people to skydive, that didn't come about till much later.

I'm surprised that someone thinks that.

Both Bill Booth and Ted Strong had training in mind very early in their development of Tandem jumping.

It was the carnival ride stuff that came later.

PS
Your earlier post about "pressure" on the student to pull is interesting too. A well trained Tandem student should not feel any pressure at all, but should consider it a challenge. After all, their instructor is there to pull if they do not, so that should make them quite comfortable, knowing that they can try something without the risk of "failure" actually causing any danger.

I have heard this arguement from many people, that Tandem students don't want to do anything on their jump, but if they are trained as a skydiving student they will usually act like one, and enjoy it.

I think too many instructors just give up and take the easy way out.

I wish everyone that is participating in this thread will consider training their Tandem students as much as they possibly can, because the apathy very easily spreads.

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

Maybe you are right about what Bill and Ted had in mind, I don't know what they were thinking. But tandem was not widely used as a training method just few years ago, not to my knowledge anyways. Also maybe the word pressure wasn't right, but you know what I'm talking about, alot of them just want the ride without having to a task. What is wrong with that? Now let me say I am not against giving a passenger a chance to pull. If someone asks to do it I will train them for it. I just don't see why you guys insist on insulting people down because they don't do things the you think they should be done.

[peek 20]

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... alot of them just want the ride without having to a task. What is wrong with that?

Of course there isn't really anything wrong with it, but what has happened over time is that now Tandem jumps are known to be carnival rides to many people, because the people they know that have done a Tandem jump of that kind tell them about it.

Just think how nice it would be for all our our Tandem students to excitedly greet us and tell us how they can't wait for us to teach them all that cool stuff their friend told them that they did on their jump, like reading the altimeter, doing turns by themself, pulling the ripcord and steering the parachute.

If we all did that we might get the momentum going the other way!

[koppel 3]

Here in Australia there is no requirement to give the student a handle or alti.

I always encourage the 'student' to have a fly and give them a lesson on the parchute regarding turns and stalls etc.

I never allow them to assist with the landing. I am sure that they get more out of landing safely than any possible benifit from assisting.

Are there any other countries other than the States that require the 'student' to be trained to read an alti and pull a ripcord on a tandem?

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[tkhayes 124]

We give them the ripcord and tell them to pull at 4000' IF we have not pulled by then. (we normally pull at 5000'

The FARs only require you to give the passenger a ripcord and teach them to us eif IF the owner/operator of the gear wants it that way. SO my guess if that most DZ's do not want the student to pull under any circumstances - which in fact makes no sense to me.

Unconcious TI, AAD fires, Tandem pair lands off the DZ and gets injured, seriously or not, sues the DZ for th einjuries and you have to stand in court and justify why you never taught the student to pull when the equipment has that capability.

Even if the FARs and AAD are on your side, and perhaps even the outcome was the same, I think you would look pretty stupid standing there trying to justify that.

It takes 10 seconds to teach it - here's the ripcord, here's the altimeter, if you see 4000' or less, and we are in freefall, then pull this handle

none of them remember it anyway, but at least you taught it

TK

[marks2065 0]

i have had students that have done tandems at other places and said they didn't get to do anything wonder why i let them help with everything.you are right that some don't want to do anthing but fall - but that is their choice. the dzo and ti have taken that option away. how many of these students would have had a better jump? out of 600 tandems i had over 500 pull, fly and land and the look in their eyes was worth every minute of training. tandems were my way of giving back to a sport that took me in and giving any less to the student imo is wrong.

[USPA 0]

In the Dutch system the court apearence would be easy (in fact it would never make it to court)

"Your honor, these are the risks involved with teaching a student to use the secondairy drogue release..."

done...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[tkhayes 124]

what would those risks be? I see no risks at all in teaching the student to use the ripcord, other than once-in-a-blue-moon, the student pulls high

TK

[marks2065 0]

if the studen t pulls high who cares you get a little longer ride - if he pulls to low the ti has already pulled - if he pulls on time great job i see no cons only the posibility of good for the student